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I am not a techie; I lack the scientific background for that. However, I did design my own speakers and have been very involve with numerous modifications I've decided to make to my electronic. The result is that I have a general understanding of how a lot of audio equipment works which has changed the way I view speakers and electronics. The interesting result is that I often find it difficult to talk with audiophiles who don't have this general understanding and are solely guided by their ears.Anyone else had the same experiences?
Education is the key. If only I could go back to high school and learn just basic electronics. Hands on working with wires, solder, caps, resistors.I know its never to late but do they even teach anything about tubes anymore? My foolishness in my younger years & older years have kept me from learning. Sure i would love to build a kit amp or preamp but the fear of screwing up and not knowing what I am doing has stopped me. Please don't brush us off. Teach us
Humbly
Bill
If you want to try a kit, take a look at Marchand Electronics' EZ kits (www.marchandelec.com). All the circuit boards come preassembled and tested. I put together his electronic crossover and all I have to do was strip some wires and make some connections. The kit didn't even require a soldering gun! Nothing like getting "under the hood" to learn more about the equipment. I don't mean to imply that it is a substitute for learning, it's not, but it is a start.
Person A states speaker X can't do bass based on the specifications of the cabinet, and driver.Person B states speaker X has good bass based on its sound.
A and B make like Rams, and butt heads over the issue.
Person A wanders over to another group of midnight revelers, and complains that he can't communicate with (implied) stupid non-DIYers.
What can we learn from this situation?
1. If you don't account for the diffierences in the way other people percieve the world, you can't effectively communicate.
2. True debate is not possible when both parties are simply trying to convert the other, and won't budge from their a priori beliefs.
3. It's always the other guys fault if you can't communicate.
What I find hard to deal with is that since I have started building my own equipment, the price of my stereo componets has come way down. Instead of buying an amp, preamp, or speakers for $2500., I can build one for a few hundred. This makes it SEEM like they are not as good since they do not cost a fortune. My message to non-DIYers is, you don't have to spend a lot to get great sound if you can solder and access infoand help on the internet. Many hardcore audiophiles just do not take seriously anything that does not cost a fortune. It's a shame! Regards, Greg R.
I would say that there is a whole bunch of audiophiles that
do not take seriously anything that costs a fortune :-)
I'll give you a "war story". I took my speakers into a shop because a salesperson wanted to hear the Mangers. We set the speakers up in the high-end room, and because the shop had Spectral electronics and would not accept bi-amping, we used by BK Electronics amp module amp along with my Marchand Passive Preamp and Marchand XM9 electroinc crossover. For the bottom end we used one of the shop's Classe amps.This system immediately smoked a $20,000 pair of Avalon Eidolons; they sounded terrible next to my home-made speakers. To be fair, I'm told that Avalons sound their best with Spectral electronics and the Avalons were not hooked up to this equipment (I think we used what was easy to hook up and was already in place). My speakers cost me around one-tenth of the Avalons and my electronics cost a fraction of the electronics hooked up the the Avalons. In fact the Classe amp we used for my woofers cost more than all of the equipment I was using at the time. I have personally experienced the value DIY equipment represents.
The other advantage is that DIY equipment can be tweaked easily and inexpensively. I don't have to go out and buy a completely new unit. Since I was at the store, I've added a baffle step compensation circuit to the crossover, and added a pair of woofers to the speaker cabinets.
I bet your speakers really do sound great! I have read about your story somewhere about 10 months ago and would love to have the mangers. I have had similiar results with my Aria5/Raven1's. They are much better than many audiophile speakers costing 2k to 4k. As for the baffle Eq, I just added one to my DIY active crossover for a Morel 2-way. Too bad it made the sound too bassy with muddy low midrange/high bass. I only used 3db of boost. This took 4 hours of my time that I wish I had back. I guess you had much better luck. Many people do not. The final solution for me was making the first 2nd order filter have a lower xover point(1113.9hz) while the second 2nd order filter was left unchanged(1931.2hz). (2nd order plus 2nd order equals my 4th order filters). The response is now flat and I am a very happy DIYer. I am not too smart about some things and any success I have with my DIY projects makes me feel better about myself. I believe sucess takes a combination of technical AND audiophile knowledge. Regards, Greg R.
I prefer to let the music speak for itself. Hi-Fi to me is a means to an end. That end being the pleasure that can be found in music (whatever the music might be).When does someone become a DIYer? Placing your system on a self-assembled rack? Or when you can build a DAC from scratch? I think most people who discover music played through decent electronics have dabbled at some point with some form of DIY to hopefully get nearer to the sound they want. I have, but have yet to be completely happy with anything I have built/modded. But all this is just MHO.
Hi there,I have a degree in Electronics. I have worked for a long time in Pro-Audio. I have a fairly decent working understanding of Audio, the way works, how human hearing and perception interact with equipments charateristics and such.
I find it usually extremely difficult to talk to people who approach the whole thing purely from the technical view and who belive that the current approaches to quntifying technical perfomance of equipment have any correlation to "how it will sound".
I find it easier to talk to people who will say "this sounds good and this doesn't" while being fully ignorant of technicalities than with people who believe the extremely reductionist "modern" view of audio and the measuremnts produced on this background have any meaning....
Later Thorsten
PS.: My favourite line(s) in such situations: "Those who think they know it all really piss off those of us who do." ;-) ) Or as they said in the old days: "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing."
In about 1982 I had this same exchange with Craig Stark of Sterno Review (just a personal view) . Craig after a 20 min. speech finally agreed that if the test do not agree with what you hear then the test is no good. It then took 10 years for him admit it in print. Much like most audiophiles dogma rules! In the 3rd edtion of radiotron the is a reference to a bell lab study that concluded that upper level i.e. 5th, 7th ,9th orde harmonic were 10 times more percevable than low even order harmonics. But to this day thd is a gross number with no weighting for the human factor.My favourite is just because you are paraniod does not mean some one is not watching you.
Your point is well taken. Folks who "audition" equipment solely their instruments and not their ears are another extreme view point. With your engineering background, they don't have much to offer you.For people like me, they provide insights into the equipment, I just don't embrace their conclusions. For example, I have an engineering friend who has tutored me on many electronic principles. I am very greatful for the advice, but I don't agree with him that I could hook lamp cord to my equipment and not tell the difference. I listen to what he has to say, but I spend my money in accordance with what MY ears tell me.
I have also experienced this. How do you discuss something with somebody who does not have a conceptual frame of reference for the ideas being discussed?
Hi ccd,I find just the reverse -- it's difficult to communicate with those who are primarily guided by "numbers". Just MHO.
Best wishes,
Jim
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