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In Reply to: Re: accusation of major scandals posted by Tweekeng on November 14, 2005 at 13:30:21:
...to have such a cynical viewpoint. It's not based on boots on the ground experience to back it up, so it's purely academic. That type of POV means nothing in practical terms. Audio playback is an experience, not a concept. Perthaps someday you will say to yourself, "dammit, I'm going to hear for myself what all the silly fuss is about". Most folks who "believe in junk" don't mind a blow-off of things which are *observed*, just not brickwall opines postured as "naysaying truth" based on ignorance. Ignorance being NOT listening for oneself before slamming. To do otherwise is troll-like noise with no benefit other than in the mind of the poster who wishes to save inmates from themselves. What a pointless crusade.
Follow Ups:
I worked my way through collage selling snake oil to audiophiles in a little ultra high-end audio boutique down in So. Cal.I sold many systems that I still could not afford to this day to people with more money than brains. My boss loved me because being an engineering student I could baffle them with technical BS with out batting an eye.
I used to laugh all the way to the bank at these guys that could hear the difference between gold and sliver and standard interconnects during our listening tests, but I never changed them, they were listening to the exact same interconnects every time. They expected to hear a difference so they did.
So excuse me if I am a little cynical about this type of stuff. :p
Tweakeng: ""I used to laugh all the way to the bank at these guys that could hear the difference between gold and sliver and standard interconnects during our listening tests, but I never changed them, they were listening to the exact same interconnects every time. They expected to hear a difference so they did.""Hmm, so you practiced in essence, "bait and switch" level tactics to garner a more expensive sale, because you figured the customers were dumb, and you were good at tossing around buzz words?
While I am an engineer by training, somehow I missed Immorality 101 and Fraud 201 as part of the core curricula..
But now, you are a reformed man???Interesting..
Cheers, John
And this somehow makes me different than the people selling magic rocks, tuning dots, tice clocks, speaker wire risers... I could go an all day.Besides that was twenty years ago, I like to think I have grown. :p
You know last year the wife and I were looking to buy a new TV. When we were at Best Buy we were interested in this Samsung. I asked the guy how much he rattles off a price PLUS a $200 "line conditioner". Just for fun I played dumb and asked him what that was for. He says the picture on this Samsung looks so good because it is plugged into a line conditioner. Then he takes me over to the one TV back in the corner that obviously had a bad cable connection and in a nut shell told me all that snow was caused by not using a line conditioner.
The kid was good, reminded me of my self back in the day. I would have bought it from him but I did not want to break his heart by buying the set and not the line conditioner and monster cables that he makes all his commission on.
But anyway my point is this happens everyday, thats why they say buyer beware.
A distinction between a kid who probably doesn't know that what he is saying is incorrect, and one who knows that what he is saying is indeed incorrect.Both do the exact same thing, but one knows better.
Cheers, John
The difficult part is determining whether the person is lying or just deluded.
"being an engineering student I could baffle them with technical BS with out batting an eye"
Guess that must make you some kind of stand up guy. Guess because you found some rich people you could manipulate you took them as fools. Guess you think anybody that says they can hear differences that you cannot measure are fools too? Can you measure the difference between a good wine maker and a great wine maker? Can you measure the difference between a good chef and a great chef? Can you measure.... this just goes on and on and on. Guess that you can measure a woman who loves you from one who does not? Guess that you dont hear any differences because your measurements tell you that none exist?
I feel very sorry for you bud. Publish some brilliant papers and prove us all wrong, that might help some. Prove what ever turns your crank, just don't tell me what I can hear see feel or think thank you. Some kind of adjustment is needed in your life. I for one do not need your proof nor your permission to believe what ever I want. Regards Moray James.
moray james
There is a whole class of people out there that do not care about anything but price, they just want the most expensive there is. It's like they are in some contest with all their rich buddies to see who can spend the most money.So I took advantage of this, so does every salesman that is paid on commission. I am not saying its right, its just the truth.
You know I my boss used to tell me not to feel bad about it because people that come in the botique expect to pay too much. If they wanted a deal they would have gone to the mall. It's kind of like the five star restaurant that has horrable service and tiny protions. If you wanted a cheap meal and friendy service you would have gone to McDonalds.
nt
Is you position so weak that you have to resort to pointing out spelling and grammar errors?
....yours was. There was little else to comment on, excepting the glaring errors. Oh....and it's 'your position', not 'you position'. You're welcome in advance.
You're welcome.
.
%-)
Sorry: all I hear is poletical backspinning. You are just digging a deeper hole. You sound like you imagine that everybody does just what you do, I guess that helps you justify your choices. I see the point that you are trying to make but I do not belive that it applies in this case. There is a difference between what the market will bear and rape. You are on a slippery slope. Presentation of the facts up front makes all the difference.
We should agree to disagree at this point. I would be far more interested in hearing you thoughts and ideas about what to measure and how to measure. If you have insight then share it and lets see where that goes. Regards Moray James.
moray james
I just wonder how many of them hang out here at the Asylum. It seems to me that the bulk of folks around here are basically good sound junkies that would be thrilled at the prospect of purchasing a world class PC at Dollar Tree. I know that I would.
How did these people "with no brains" earn their money?FWIW, I have degrees in mechanical and industrial engineering. I used to be a cable skeptic too (as recently as a year ago) until I learned otherwise.
Anyway, IMHO, one of the differences between a B.S. (BS, really!) and M.S. in engineering is an open mind.
___________C N Machani
Do the things you've learned as an engineer support your feelings about cables?
nt
___________C N Machani
They inherited it.
Would you mind telling your story about progressing from being a cable skeptic to now being one that thinks otherwise? I've always appreciated observations of the "converted", and an engineer's POV is at the top of the list in terms of being interesting. An engineer can often explain the naysayer POV better than anyone, and provide a yeasayer position in a rather unique way. TIA (and cheers)...
Hi Duster,To be quite honest I did not have much of an opinion about cables at first. In my HT days I had posed questions in AVSForum about what cables would improve the sound of my Cerwin Vega HT speaker, and was pointed to Speaker cable face off #1 at AudioHolics, and received other "advice" that I would be wasting money on cables. But to my ears a decent subwoofer cable (for an active sub) and 12 AWG speaker cables made a difference over the cheap stock sub and speaker cables that came with the speakers.
I made the transition from HT to two channel over 18 months ago when I bought a Cayin TA-30 amp. Ironically, it was an engineer (masters in EE) friend who introduced me to tubes and I found that a dedicated two channel was far more pleasing for enjoying music than HT (at least budget HT gear).
In the interest of brevity, please read an earlier post by following the link. The essence of that post is that, as I tweaked and added revealing components to my setup, the more I could perceive difference in sound between cables and accessories, as well as phenomena like burn in. I was skeptical about burn in until I tried an experiment myself with identical DIY power cords. I was able to easily tell in blind tests which one was burned in two weeks on a refrigerator.
Now going back to the point about BS and MS in engineering. I find a lot of the hard core skeptics and naysayers to be extremely opionated, a lot like me during my BS in engineering days. The more one knows the more open minded one becomes. From a mechanical engineering standpoint, when one takes a course in, for example Viscous Turbulent Flow, offered at the MS level, it makes you a lot more humble than when you take a course on Fluid Dynamics, which you think you mastered well at the BS level.
My background is not in EE, and I would indeed give credit to the guys in AudioHolics for dispelling certain myths, but I find a lot of reasoning and explanations by naysayers to be rudimentary, at best. For example, the circuit diagrams are those one encounters in EE 101 or 102. At that level there are assumptions and boundary conditions galore. Interestingly, Mudcat's speaker cable face off #2 at AH shows that RLC parameters measure differently at different frequencies well within the audible spectrum. It seems very reasonable to me that altering materials composition (by methods including the use cryogenics and silver plating) can change electrical characteristics enough to make audible differences.
No BS here!
___________C N Machani
Yo a mo' nasty critter than I dun' thunk. 'nuff said.
It underscores the unreliability of subjective-only evaluation. You've got to have the "evil EE types" involved for this reason.
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