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With apologies to Barry Kohan who seems to have some objections to such projects even though IMHO they will lead to more sales for him, not fewer.This project had a net total cost of under $40.00! Sides are ripped from prepainted (then re-painted) MDF Bullnose shelves from Home depot. Top and bottom panels are 3/4" MDF. Hardware is stanley from HD. About 40# of sand so total weight on the shelf is around 100#. Footers, currently, are simply those heavy felt circles (stick on). I may experiment with an aluminum (or other) top plate and different footers.
Impressions: Immediately noticed music coming from a much darker, quieter background. Imaging/Images more precise across the board, Bass lines significantly better defined, tight, tuneful with more power and impact to boot. Strangely (or not?) surface noise (already pretty well under control) has also been significantly reduced - a real plus)Unit has been in service for about 10-days so, impressions are solidifying.
Skipping the "Audiophile" recordings and going through your collection is particularly illustrative. Last night it was (among other things) Tom Rush from the mid-sixties. (Self-titled with Rail Yard on the cover) Also - Eric Anderson, "Blue River". It's stuff like this that proves revelatory - to me, at least.
This is, IMHO, a really cheap, EZ way to decide whether such devices will work for you.
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
Follow Ups:
Last evening I listened to Three+ David Grisman LP's starting with his first "The David Grisman Quinter", moving to "Dawg Music" then "Mondo Mando" and, finally, the first side of the live one with Stephane Grappelli.Now - these albums have always sounded pretty good and it is relatively EZ to make them so. What's not so EZ is making them sound "right". They can get congested with so much "going on".
From top to bottom - everything improved and in dramatic fashion. The bass line was far easier to follow and more powerful/tuneful. Ankles were tired from all the foot tapping. Talk about "drive".
Next, the guitar - especially the lower strings, took on a roundness and palpability that I had never heard before.
You know how thin a mandolin can sound. Well - when you hear the roundness of properly reproduced notes and the body of the instrument itself - all I can say is - WOW!
Same held true for the fiddle - all traces of "edginess" gone - new "body" to the instrument.
If I sound excited - I am!! One little $40.00 experiment has taken things to a whole new level.
Thanks folks for keeping my experiment "gene" alive.
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
Yes I agree .....did the same with a big one and put the whole TNT Flexy stack on it !
Built one a while ago and got a great improvement with my TNT.
Still the best 'bang for buck' improvement I've made.
My Sandbox.
System Details
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Nice job. I also did some isolation work on a VPI HW-19 that made big, similar sonic improvements and would also recommend as much isolation as possible. Try two sheets of dense wood(costly is the $30 cutting board from Bed, Bath & Beyond recommended by VPI) seperated by either 1 16" bicycle tire( try Walmart) or 3 smaller ones if you have trouble leveling.
i did the same thing for my amp with a maple cutting board that i wasn't using. i experamented a lot and found i liked cones under it best.
Works exactly as you describe even though I didn't use audiophile-approved sand. Regular ol' silica worked for me. I sealed my box so the sand couldn't escape.
my hardward guy said this stuff (Tube sand) was drier than sandbox (play)sand. It comes in long tubes to you can use it to add weight to your trunk in the winter. Not special in the least.
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
I got two bags of sand that I had to dry by spreading out on a sheeting material and running a heater over it for a couple of days all why sifting it around. Not plug and play at all!! Was worth the effort though. Quieter backgrounds and deeper bass is what I mostly got for mine. Top plate is a piece of corian with five pieces of metal angles glued to the bottom to keep it stable. It's been more than a year and I've yet to put the weather stripping in.I'll forever be grateful for inmate Batman for doing this sandbox for me (a thank you gift) as I never would have bothered to do so myself being the lazy bugger I am!
marc g. - audiophile by day, music lover by night
You did a great job. Thanks for sharing.What are the dimensions of your sandbox (e.g., width, depth, and height)?
Since I would be building my sand box from scratch, does Home Depot carry the necessary MDF?
How did you make the 45-degree miter-box cuts for the side walls? Will Home Depot make these cuts for a fee?
Where did you get the sand and what type is it?
How did you level the sand?
What caulking compound did you use and how did you apply it for a professional touch?
I like the idea that the top plate of your box is floating. Have you considered using brass points as footers for the bottom plate?
Once again, you did a great job!
are a pain in the arse, unless you have a well-adjusted power saw of some sort.I see nothing wrong with simple butt joints glued and screwed. You can counter-sink the screws and use a wood filler for the holes.
If you spend a little time filling and sanding the butt joints and holes, the joints will be virtually invisible after you paint.
The butt joint could be a stronger/neater solution than the miter in this application.
which is why I chose miter joints over "butt" joints
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
Dimensions - 18 x 24 x 4-3/4. 2" of sand. But - not critical - probably should have been slightly bigger. Should leave 2" or so all around the component feet.Home Depot carries the stuff - but I did all my own cutting, including the miters. I don't know how far they will go and I doubt they will do the miters but - you can ask.
The sand is nothing special - called "Tube sand" because it comes in long tubes that are designed to put in your trunk for winter traction and opened for emergencies. Local guy said it would be drier than "play" sand.
Leveling it was, in fact, the biggest pain. Patience, Patience, Trial, Error, Trial. If you could just set it on a vibrating platform it would be great.
No caulk - just glued the corners & bottom using yellow carpenter's glue. (I glued and clamped the mitered pieces before I even attached the hardware using a "belt" clamp. I'll provide a pic if you want.
Floating the top plate is essential IMHO because everything has to be supported by the sand.
I have considered different footers and may try some at some point - right now I'm just enjoying.
Being called for dinner but - I have a little follow-up I'll post in awhile.
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
When I first (re) substituted four Navcom pucks (no longer available) for the springs in the VPI, I heard significant improvements. Talked to Mike at VPI and he recommends these both over the stock springs and their newer Sorbothane inserts. Here's the kicker: Tappin on the shelf below I heard more breakthrough, not less.Now - strangely - with the sandbox - if you rap on the shelf below - there is even MORE breakthrough - (I do this lowering the cartridge on a stationary record-then tapping/rapping) but it still sounds better - way better. Go figure.
I wish someone could explain to me that, even while the TT is more isolated in terms of its ability to perform - it responds more to the (relatively larger) vibrations. I suspect it has something to do with the microscopic level we're dealing here that has little or nothing to do with kinds of vibrations you cause when pounding on the supporting shelf but - I just don't know.
Obviously if you tried the same thing with a rigid suspension, cone mounted table - this would be even worse - I suspect, MUCH worse. Yet the energy that affects the music is "drained" awy or isolated or - whatever.
Would sure love to hear a plausible, technical explanation. Maybe - I'll just ask VPI depending on what I hear here.
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
Put your vibrating orbital or pad sander against the bottom of the sand box.
Why dahell didn't I think of that - course it would probably mean placing it under the support shelf but - that's OK too. Just remove the sandpaper
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
Very, very nice kavakidd. I recently put a Big Rock 1 under my Merrill Heirloom in place of a Big Rock 3 and noticed all the sonic improvements you mentioned. Not to say that the smaller sandbox was not nice, but it seems that 60plus lbs of sand of the Big Rock 1 does make a difference. Also, having a Air Mass under that Big Rock makes even better music.
Very nice, I may try a lower profile version due to having less space. ThanksIn the first picture, is that a... hammer?
Best wishes, Craig
Very funny! Actually - it's a rubber mallet I used to adjust the mitre joints after I glued & clamped them.
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
Yes, I have had great results with a sandbox. The difference from yours is that I have my Quattro table direct on the top plinth of the sandbox (with 50 lbs of sand), and that top plate at this moment is 1 1/4 inch thick maple. I wonder if, by using that second mdf plate on the little feet, you are helping or hurting the design (or maybe there would not be much difference?) Have you experimented with that?Very nice! Do the sides of the top plate touch the sides of your sandbox? It looks like, from the photo, that you did not use any weatherstripping (foam) around the inside edges of the box. This is a good thing to do to insure that the top plate does not contact the sides of the box.
In regards to aluminum as a top plate, that's probably my next experiment. I went with maple for A) cost at the time and B) some other audio nerds (for we are all nerds!) claiming the sonic wonder of maple. Using my friend the stephascope (very handy for detecting vibration), there is a most definte resonance with the maple butcher block. I think that thick aluminum, with heat sinks, might be better damped and more ideal. Peter Clark of Redpoint, who, along with Thom Mackris of Galibier, designed the table is not a maple fan, thinks that aluminum with heat sinks would better suit his and Thom's design.
Actually the stuff u guys are trying to make is nothing but the TNT sandblaster. Quite a good one, which i had made & am using since 4 years now. Though the original design suggests using the top plate as MDF, it may ( in some systems) dry-out the flesh in the music. Maple, is a much better choice. I do not suggest Aluminium,bcos its got its own RINGING character. Cork is way better than MDF in this design, which was my 1st change. Just a quarter-inch Cork sheet on the sand & ur equipment directly sits on it. It is highly suggested to remove the feet off ur component so as to DAMP the chassis of the component with the sand-effect that we are trying to achieve here. Also try a Half-Inch Acrylic sheet. Depens upon what u are lacking in ur system, which this isolation will induce.
If ur system is a little forward & bright, can certainly use MDF. But in a descent set-up, i think Maple is very NEUTRAL.
Do let me know ur experiences
Hi Mark,My TT also sits directly on the top plinth which, in turn, sits on the sand. Or - are you talking about the little feet on the TT? The "second" plate is, simply the bottom of the box. Not anything separate.
The top plate is a full 1/4" away from (all four) the sides. I had thought of some some of weather stripping (or just rubber hose) tho the top plate ain't goin' anywhere. Might just dress it up a little and "seal" the sand dust in - don't know.
As far as thicknoess of aluminum or whatever you might use - there's a John Risch post in the archives that suggests that thinner is better than thicker. Seems to make some sense.
Thanks for your comments/feedback - much appreciated.
Dave
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
what you mean. What may look like a second MDF plate is the actual VPI base (it "steps" in) with the stock VPI rubber feet.
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail".
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