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In Reply to: Cryogenic treatment posted by Brian Walsh on March 21, 2000 at 10:25:57:
We've cryo'd a pair of permalloy core line level output transformers, and there was an audible improvement over a pair of stock units. In this case the approach was fairly reasonable, because the lamination stack could be stressed slightly when being put in the channel frame or under the keepers or bell ends, and permalloy's performance can be degraded slightly by such stress. The cryo treatment would theoretically relieve that stress, and potentially improve the sonics. Seemed to give a bit smoother presentation.I bet some tubes could benefit from the treatment as well, as Pearl has offered in the past.
I don't know that the cryo treatment would hold up on, say, a cable that is being subjected to new stresses every time you hook it up. Seems like it would depend on how much it gets bent after treatment.
I'll be sending my new heavy barreled Mauser bolt action to the cryo shop real soon too...supposed to improve accuracy in some cases.
What you do with your audio gear is your busines, however the rates of thermal permeation (thermal gradiant propogation) are dependant upon material of construction. However in the case of a fire arm, the external compression could exceed the tensile strenth of the material and result in micro fractures not visable to the eye. Those fracture could in turn fail under stress. (Fire arm discharge) Causing severe damage to the operator. This could be avoided if the thermal shock is minimized by approaching the minimal temperature at a very gradual reduction in temperature. However most of the cryo treatments are immersion in liquid nitrogen.Please do yourself a favor and think twice on this one.
jeff
Cryogenic gun barrel treatment is a common procedure these days and is indeed done slowly, with equipment devised specially for the job.You know something of the thermal physics of the subject, so I would like to offer you a small scrap of information to add to your knowledge base. You may wish to try this link to one of several companies who offer cryogenic barrel treatment.
It may "temper" your opinion of my judgement...
After visiting the site I thing I'm just gonna lose my temper!!!!
> After visiting the site I thing I'm just gonna lose my temper!!!!Please don't shoot! ;-)
I've learned that several high end audio manufacturers are using cryogenic treatment (you do *not* want to expose the items directly to liquid nitrogen), and then some. A reliable source mentions liquid helium for even more extreme low temperatures as well as heat cycling (high temperatures) as being done, with impressive results.
Carefully done, freezing tubes, capacitors, and so on is perfectly safe and reliable. Plastic and paint on items can be touchy. I told a friend not to freeze his Marantz 9's, as he wouldn't want to risk the paint on the faceplates.
The only cryogenic treatment which should be used in our area of interest is one where the parts being treated do not come in contact with liquid nitrogen, i.e. they are in a separate chamber with air circulating around the parts. The rate of temperature change is computer controlled and ranges between 1 and 3 degrees F per minute, depending on what is being treated.
I was over at Bill Perkins (Pearl) a while back and he said he was getting a pair of Jennifer's JenaLab interconnect in for a freeze. I have no idea if if received them yet. Bill offered to freeze all my tubes with a money back guarantee if I wasn't more than impressed with the results. I haven't taken him up on his offer yet but will consider it in the future. When you're talking tubes for Atma M60s, you're talking lots of tubes, and lots of money to freeze them. Not exactly the best scenario to test this out. Maybe I'll have him do some 5670s for a SoulSister.As for what the freeze does to tubes. I hope Bill puts up a website explaining all this. I was told, if memory serves me right, one thing it would do is reduce microphony and noise.
I hope that none of the following comes accross as snide, it's certainly not intended to be. That said, I must re-iterate the old saw that "A little knowledge is dangerous" as it certainly applies hear (pun intended).There is a lot more involved to genuine cryogenic treating than a mere simplistic 'freezing' of components. The results of proper cryogenic treating produce verifiable and demonstrative structural changes at the molecular level. The operative word here is 'proper' and 'Caveat emptor' applies to this field as much as to any other : the woods is full of hypsters and charlatins.
About a year ago a fellow 'phile (a graduate E.E., no less) told me about crogenic (cryo) treating of audio components, which he had not yet done, and gave me the name of a company which offered this service in the Chicago area. I then called and spoke with the V.P. of the company, Rick Diekkman ("Deekman"), who is quite personable and a pleasure to talk with. I subsequently sent him some components (Rikenohm CF R's; B-G caps; a pair of home brew interconnects that are constructed using a teflon/teflon coax with 22 ga. silver plated OFC signal line and full silver plated OFC copper braid shield, they are equipped with Vampire OFC RCA's [the best RCA's I've yet heard, they trash WBT's & Odyssey's]and Vampire silver solder, and were pre-burned for 48 hrs. on a Duo Tech Cable Enhancer and had been in my system between CD player/preamp for several months; and one very familiar CD which had had the edges greened and then blackened). The pristine Rikenohm's are, to my ear, the best sounding R's I have found- noticeably better sounding than the Shinkoh Ta films. I sent 2 values of the Rikenohm's : 270 ohm & 2.7K as these are the values used in the most critical area of my highly tweaked Borbely 388 preamp (built with teflon pcb's and mucho other goodies).
After the cryo'd parts were returned I first listened to the CD, not really expecting to hear much of a difference. ( "Bits Is Bits", even if they're frozen bits, aren't they ?). To my surprise, I heard an improvent in overal sonics and increased detail, etc. very similar to the result of greening the edges of a CD.
I next installed the cryo'd interconnects between the CD player and preamp (I have always found that the closer to the signal source a given mod or improvement is made the more pronounced the effect). The increased dynamics, additional fine detail, transient attack and decay and overall sonic improvement was very pronounced. I am a bass freak and what I heard was pure bliss ! Also, the attack, sheen, extension, and decay of cymbols was similarly spectacular.
Lastly, I substituted the cryo'd Rikenohm's for the 'plain' Rikenohms in the Borbely's feedback circuit. The result was more of the same results with the interconnects. A long time ago I began to believe that the range of possible sonic improvement as a result of upgrading components and tweaking is near infinite. I have yet to see any evidence of the onset of diminishing returns.
The company I dealt with is :
Controlled Thermal Processing, Inc.
703 Rogers St.
Downers Grove, Ill. 60515
Ph. 630/852-6548 FAX 852-1948Their website is www.metal-wear.com
Their website is a hoot, and the FAQ's are particularly enlightening.
In '98 the price for cryo treating was made by the pound @ $9/lb.
Rick Dieckman told me that a manufacturer of tube audio gear(whom he declined to identify) sends them all of their finished product line for cryo'ing. I can hear why ! If this sonds like a commercial, it's because it is ! Visit their website, it will be well worth your time.
Hi:I've read about the seemingly dramatic improvements in certain instruments, tools, etc., from cryo treatment, but I'm not so sure freezing tubes is a good idea. The coefficients of contraction/expansion between glass and the tube's metal pins is different. On one hand, if the metal contracts slower than the glass you may microfractures at the metal/glass juncture causing air to be sucked into the tube's vacuum resulting in oxidation of the filament, etc. = tube failure. If the metal contracts faster than the glass, then the junction will again break resulting in air being sucked into the vacuum.
While there may be a sonic improvement, tube life will suffer.
Mike Masztal
Soundstage!
that's my problems with cables. The shielding with contact further than the insolation with sharp edges at temperatures where the said insolation becomes brittle
Mike:I think you've raised some good issues. I wouldn't try freezing with precious NOS tubes. I haven't tried it but I've heard anectodal reports that freezing has negatively impacted microphonics--which would fit in with what you're talking about in regards to different expansion coefficients.
Myles B. Astor
Publisher
Ultimate Audio
The areas you mention are of particular interest. I'm researching the topic further and look forward to hearing about your results.
I might see Bill in a week or so regarding another project but don't plan on freezing anything myself for a couple of months. If you can wait until then, I'll let you know the results. If you are interested in contacting Bill re: his research/papers or services you can reach him at 403-244-4434, Calgary, Alberta. BTW, I believe he has some papers that were ready for a website, which would mean that he might send them to you. Sorry, I don't have his addy. Hope the research goes well. Sounds interesting.
Doc B.: "..I'll be sending my new heavy barreled Mauser bolt action to the cryo shop real soon too...supposed to improve accuracy in some cases..."Quest: Can I throw in my Fujitsu keyboard while you're at it? The keystrokes aren't behaving as expected recently...
Quest ;^>
sure, during the process the Mauser can put the Fujitsu out of your wife's misery. ;^>
Huh?
the gun shoots the keyboard & saves your wife from hearing you practice
Maybe we need to cryo your fingers...
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