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In Reply to: Re: what's the best Fisher or Eico amp/integrated to drive Quad esl63? posted by JJ Analog on April 26, 2002 at 09:28:00:
JJ; I respect your view on this, but the Quad ESL63, even used is a $2000 pair of speakers that deserve the most trick amp you can afford; this isn't a "you gotta spend big $$ or it'l suck etc" rant, just an advisory about system balance and similar quality of all components. Further, I needed a hot rod McIntosh 275 with an 800 ma Kepco labs tube regulated (16 6L6s!!!)DC supply on the plates, a Tektronix 6080 based 'scope regultar on the bias and cathode folower, and a HP running the "bootstrapped" driver tubes-- it scoped at 125 WPC continuous, and at least triple that on peaks-- to drive them to their full output. Again, respectfully, I don't think a ST70 is sufficient for even the 50s Quads to really "breathe" properly. McIntosh amps, (sorry, Mac owners) with the exception of the tube rectified monoblocks, the MC 60 and 50 W2 in particular, are not especially high fidelity w/o insane mods incl. full DC regulation, top dawg caps etc. Don't get me wrong; I've owned nearly every Mac tube model, and spent MANY hours in audio ecstasy listening to Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and my man Jimi, but as I heard other amps like the Heath W3, the Eico HF 60 etc, the Macs lost some esteem for me. However, they are paradoxically pure MAGIC on Quad ESL 63s. They have the unique ability to deliver tremendous power into low Z loads in the 8khz and up band, which is where the impedance of the Quad dips to an amp-strangling 2 ohms. Try a pair of MC 60s, or a Fisher 125, a Grommes 260, Fairchild 255, Leak 50 watt stereo, or modified Dyna MKIIIs if you are on a budget. Chris
Follow Ups:
You stated: "Again, respectfully, I don't think a ST70 is sufficient for even the 50s Quads to really "breathe" properly." Curious how you arrived at that conclusion. QUAD states that the ESL(57) "...is designed for operation with standard QUAD II or QUAD 303 power amplifiers...Other amplifiers if they are properly regulated (not more than 33 peak volts with any load) are unlikely to cause damage to the loudspeaker...". An ST70 is capable of at least 33V peak at the 16 ohm tap (where one might logically connect the ESL). Thus, an ST70 is right at the border of causing problems (tweeter panel arcing in an unprotected ESL). My experience is that the ESL57 is plenty loud with tube amps rated anywhere between 12W and 25W. The low end might be represented by the ST35 at a real 12w/ch to maybe a W5 at the high end with 25w on a good day.To my ears the best I've heard of the ESL57s was with properly operating QUAD IIs running real KT66s or even the Russian 5881s (or whatever they really are). Not far behind was the triode connected 8B and incredibly, a mostly stock Fisher 400 receiver. In all cases, overall loudness was not an issue in an average sized rm (2300ft3) with a wide range of music.
My comments on the 50s Quads were an aside, we're talking ESL63s here.
Conlusions reached by using gear described. The amps most people use are to avoid blowing them up, not making the effortless, dynamic sound that tubes are about. Chris
would fisher 80az, 100, sa300 or eico hf35, hf87, st70 be in the same league as the amps you mentioned?
Hi,
RE the Eicos,the HF 35's are world beaters.Big expensive potted transformers,mullard circuit,getting rare and going up in value.The Hf 87 is just barely less impressive
and is still a great value,less veiled than a Dynaco ST70.The Eico ST 70 is a crazy value at $200.00 or so,but suffers from lots of switches and controls in the front end,so not quite up to speed with one of the others coupled with a wide bandwith modern preamp.I've never heard the Fisher gear or dealt with the Quad compatibility issues,so Chris can probably get you up to speed on these issues.Overall,Eico stuff tends to sound more "modern" than most vintage gear,and currently is still relatively inexpensive(although finding a deal on an HF81 is now impossible).See if Chris and the others agree.
Best,
Pat
Campy-- there is a Fisher sa 300 for sale right now; this amp TOTALLY embarasses the Dynaco ST70, the Marantz 8B, Mac 240 and many more... its got GREAT output trannies, a huge power tranny , DUAL GZ34 rectifiers (no crappy ratty-ass voltage doubler, diode based supply a la Marantz 8B or Mac 240) and the example for sale has Mullard EL34s and GZ34s. It's listed under EL34s and Fisher SA300 on ebay; use bidnapper.com, auctionsniper.com or auction knight.com sniping services. Bidnapper is the best; they have two T1 lines to fire off bids in the last 2 seconds. (you get 3 free snipes with each of these services) to be a real SOB like me (and proud of it) and win it for less. Chris
You know best, Chris. I haven't heard Quads in 25 years, and then only with ST70 or Quad tubed amps. Whether someone really needs your kind of power depends on the kind of listening they do; Quads without a subwoofer won't do for heavy rock music IMHO. For vocal, acoustic and classical in a medium-sized room 30-50 wpc should be fine for the ESL in my $0.02 worth. Also, I think you'll agree that modded-out Dynas are easily as good as most new amps in the $2500 range, hence not unworthy of the honor of driving Quads (which are wonderful!)
True on the modified ST70s; 1/3 the cost of an equal quality amp. Great on old Quads IF MODIFIED. Disagree strongly on the Quad IIs. They were truly deadful in every way; tons of glare and coldness in the highs, no bass, no power. Best appreciated unconnected, sitting on a shelf. BTW, I most certainly don't know best. I've had one example of most pieces of gear that I comment on; that example could easily have been out of spec, making my opinion (which is all I ever can offer) totally worthless. Chris
I only said I heard the Quad ESLs "sing" with the Dyna, which may have had some tweaks already at that time. Their owner also had a Quad tube amp which I don't remember well--certainly nothing great. The guy later ditched the Quads for a pair of LS3/5As; great little speakers, more neutral than the Quads but less textured and even less bass.To each his own.
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