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In Reply to: Lamm doesn't have a marketing department... posted by Rich on September 23, 1999 at 15:49:49:
Well, Rich, because we're not talking about rocket science here. Buy all the back issues of Sound Practices and VALVE, take a look at some sites on the Web like the Self-Bias site which puts up the Fi Primer, get the RDH4 and study the circuits in all.Now I think that someone who can coax the "ultimate sound" from a circuit, SET or otherwise, is an artist and a scientist. Now, understand, i'm not saying the ML-2s are not special in a sonic sense, just that it can be done for a Hell of a lot less than $30K.
What in these amps is worth the money? SETs are simple circuits (which is a major part of their charm) where the designer/implementer must pay attention to PS construction, the noise the PS creates, ripple out of the PS, adequate driver stage at optimal operating points (and choosing the right tube for the job), a proper interface between the chosen output tube(s) and the OPTs, and optimal operating points for the output tube. At least Kondo-San put pounds of silver in his amps, which the owner could reclaim and sell at market value.
Understand that I'm not saying that the amps don't produce fabulous sound, for I don't know. And if you've got $30K laying around burning a hole in your pocket, more power to you. And what I'm saying at the end of the day is that a competent DIYer, given the right choice of speaker, can produce a pair of monoblocks that will equal the musicality and intimacy (if they have same) of the LAMMs.
that my opinion and experience is here on this subject, I will share it anyway.I've only heard these units on three occasions, each time with a different speaker. None of these speakers where your SET specific designed speaker (no horns, no giant size albight floorstanders, no Lowthers). They were heard in small rooms. They were heard in locations with dozens of other expensive, highly capable tube equipment (HIFI Shows, I warned you of my little worth).
Be it luck of correct matching, be it the result of correct matching, be it mystical or be it superior technical attributes, each encounter left me feeling that these units are worth the price. You know I too am a DIY'er and can completely agree that a well accomplished/skilled individual can meet or exceed the magic assocated to these units. I just wanted to attest to the effect of music presented with the ML2's in a system, resulted in a very moving and connected to the musical selection experience that is humbling and haunting.
I may not believe in the worth of paying $250,000 for a Rolls, $27,000 for a Rolex, $147 for a share of Amazon.com, but I am still trying to figure out how to purchase the ML2's for their high value reasonable price.
Phil, they are worth the experience of first hand listening.
your opinion always has merit. While I do question the price (and I do this for all obscenely expensive audio gear), I don't doubt the sound is phenomenal. I would love to try them on the woofers of the T-1s. (Gawd, I can here His Grace, Nigel, calling me a Philistine now).But I firmly believe (because I have heard it) that the almost ethereal experience of feeling the players are with you - because the tonal quality is spot on, because the phrasing and intervals between the notes are so right, because the ease and flow of the presentation is so like the real thing - can be accomplished by a gifted DIYer designing and building his own amp, or by a DIY craftsman executing the well-thought out design of a gifted designer. And it will cost less.
What I am saying is there are many ways to get there. What I shouldn't have said in my posts above is that someone can give you the sound of the ML-2s for far less bucks because I haven't heard them. But if what I wrote above rings true for your experience with the ML-2s, then perhaps it is possible after all.
They DO go on sale after every show-I beleive at 1/2 price. If I could swing it...
Jack
One or two days after those shows they crop up. Got to be on orders from "The Man" at that price break. Still the price exceeds my present limit.
I've heard of them going on sale/get told periodically. The question I have, is why not just Keep the same pair and reuse them for the shows? Does he need to recoup the expenses that quickly? its almost like the sale price is the normal price now-want one, just wait untill the show.
Jack
Either that or an extreme perfectionist. Can't have used units about or sell to customers. But didn't think about your point of expense recovery.
> > And what I'm saying at the end of the day is that a competent DIYer, given the right choice of speaker, can produce a pair of monoblocks that will equal the musicality and intimacy (if they have same) of the LAMMs. < <
Phil, I'm sure that any competent DIY'er has the sort of experience Vladimir Shushurin has. They probably all wrote their dissertations on the development of high-temperature electro-luminescent devices utilising SiC. And who hasn't participated in research on creating low-power lasers with continuous emission using high-temperature semiconductor devices?I wouldn't be surprised if every competent DIY'er was involved in the design and development of hi-res TV systems for military applications. No doubt they worked on target missile bombing systems too. Not to mention participated in the development and implementation of military equipment used in the Russian space exploration programme.
I mean, who among us HASN'T done these simple things?
Yes indeed, ANY competent DIY'er has that sort of experience, knowledge, skill, acumen and talent. All of them are surely capable of creating a groundbreaking amplifier like the ML-2. That much is obvious.
After all, it's JUST an SET. And they're EASY to design and build in such a way as to have virtually no sonic signature.
Yessiree Phil. Thank you for pointing these things out to me!
Cheers.
Nigel
You're at your best when sarcastic (your default state,I imagine?...love it.
Jake
What has hi-res TV for military applications have to do with musical presentation of a recording in your room? I mean, I'm thrilled he has all that diverse experience, but we are not talking missile systems, we are talking tube audio circuits that are designed to operate at optimal volatage and current. No, it's not a given. And it's not easy.Look, buy the amps since you think $30K is such a great idea. Love them. Believe that there is some intrinsic value in their price tag. Swear that they have gone where no amp has before.
I don't expect you to understand my point, because where your head is lodged precludes a broader view. You're a funny guy, just like the court fool. But an ability with humor (or sarcasm) doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. Continue your worship and tithe as you feel required at the altar of the High End.
...but I do respect you, Phil. Lesser lights I would flame unmercifully.
You are, however, testing my patience with your superfluous suppositions. For your benefit, I'll go slowly...> > What has hi-res TV for military applications have to do with musical presentation of a recording in your room? < <
ALL the experience I mentioned in my post is relevant to the design and implementation of sophisticated audio circuits. What about that do you NOT understand?
> > Look, buy the amps since you think $30K is such a great idea. < <
Where, exactly, did I say $30k was a "great idea?" It's what they cost. That's a fact, not a "great idea."
> > But an ability with humor (or sarcasm) doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. < <
So then people who produce and record music for a living, rather than listen as a hobby, don't know what they're talking about. I see. People who are intimately involved with the artist and the electronic interpretation of the artist's intent on a magnetic medium are somehow confused. Uh huh. People who listen to differences between cables and microphones and tape formulations for a living are simply jokers. OK. Thanks for that little bit of clarity. It puts everything in perspective.
> > Continue your worship and tithe as you feel required at the altar of the High End. < <
This isn't about hero worship. It's about your irresponsibility in making suppositions that are wholly unsupportable.
Ah yes, and it's about the music. Something that the Lamm products deliver in spades. Perhaps if and when you hear them, you'll realize just how ridiculous you sound.
Cheers.
Nigel
You're not being nice, just arrogant and presumptuous.Look, I never said the LAMMs don't sound fabulous. I would expect them to. What I did say is that this one designer doesn't have a corner on the market for aural Nirvana and that it's possible that someone equally talented could produce the equivalent results (with the right speaker for their amps, just as the LAMMs require same).
And considering the the sound quality of the vast majority of commercial releases today, I wouldn't brag about any association with the industry that produces such a product.
Oh, I'm glad you like the amps.
Phil tends to get a bit nasty at times in reaction to perceived foolishness, and you yourself have been know to wield not only knife-edged sarcastic wit, but occasionally flat out insults when provoked.Keep it below the threshold of the Asylum limits as you are currently doing, and I, for one, shall enjoy the debates. I find watching a well-crafted fireworks display much preferable running from a volcano.
Plus, if it stays at this level, we won't have to break out the restaints and a syringe full of Thorazine again.
Dave
PS: I'd love to audition and perhaps own a pair of ML2's, just as I'd love to own drive and perhaps a Ferrari California Spyder. But my own modest audio system suits me just fine, and it's within my budget.
***just as I'd love to own drive and perhaps a Ferrari California SpyderNo problem. Get a job as a valet at some nice restaurant in LA and you get to drive them all day long. Short trips, to be sure... but still... even the ones with a lot of cocaine on the floor.
...I want that California Spyder too! I could also go for a 456. Throw the ML-2's in and life could be very, very good.Perhaps if we pool our resources, we could come up with the requisite down payment. Better yet, YOU come up with the cash and I'LL help you enjoy it all.
Cheers.
Nigel
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