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What's the best & sweetest 12AU7 tube out there?? Teles, Mullards, Valvos, any decent American NOS,,, Looking was a nice strong, but WARM sound, and a good place to buy them!! This would be for an Air Tight ATC2 preamp. Thanks!!
Follow Ups:
I have never seen one of these in person, but the construction looks very similar to the RCA cleartop.The RCA cleartop is very nice indeed, though I am using Philips SQ 5814A (made by Siemanns) which is a little 'faster' for my McIntosh MX110 and MC240. These two just don't need any more personality!
Anyone given the Brimar a spin?
Albert
I looked on Ebay and see the ones you mean. I have never, ever, seen a Brimar with a side-getter. Although these say Made In England, I very much doubt that is the case. The logos are later style, and this is a common fake.There are a number of notorious sellers of fakes on Ebay. Due to the nature of the Ebay adventure, it is quite possible that the buyer has no idea what he is selling. Very often people have bought fakes on Ebay unknowingly, don't get any thrills from them, and turn around and sell them with a convincing description. With the number of tube transactions which have taken place on Ebay, there is a growing number of items going through many buy then sell cycles. Fakes have now passed through many hands.
Interesting to know that the most infamous seller of fakes on Ebay has a perfect feedback record of over 1000 positives! A lot of those buyers figured it out later...
I see these Brimar clear top 12AU7 and I can confirm these are GENUINE stuff. I got the same type of Brimar clear top from an old radio repair shop a couple of years ago when I was having a trip in Edingburg. These Brimar are made around seventies and have a very similar construction as the RCA clear top.The sound is very different for both but they are excellent indeed with tremendous punching.
Robert,I was curious too as I had never seen these, but they are certainly side getters and have a patina. Who else ever made 12AU7s with this construction?
Thanks,
Albert
I through in my two cents worth for the RFT 12au7. It is nicely priced and a great au7.
In many applications this can be used as a replacement.
Hi Geo!This is _very_ bad advise you are giving. The E80CC has different heater (high current), different bias point/grid voltage, and different gm - it may work in some circuits, but will blow up in others - just compare the datasheets.
Others and myself have written about the topic - just do an archive search on AA-Tubes.
Regards
---mb---
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I used one and have known others to use it in the driver stage of a SET amp without a problem. Your advice is correct. If you can get away with it, it is far superior to a 12AU7. Would you agree? Ask the manufacturer if you can use it is the best advice.
Hi Geo!I agree on what you say - _if_ it works, it is an interesting valve - but one has to verify that the circuit and power supply is appropriate - higher mu, different bias point and double heater current consumption may pose a problem for many amplifiers - therefore one must check the amp design or ask the amp manufacturer beforehand. Many a time it seems to work but destroys the expensive valves in a very short time, or worse...
I have used the E80CC myself - it is a nice medium-mu dual triode which - if not overloaded by inappropriate operating conditions and overbias - gives a very good and long-term stable performance. I build a little SET with E80CCs (Philips Heerlen factory) as driver and 6S4Ss (Russian 6B4Gs) as output stages - works very well indeed.
I used to have a studio record player which had a built-in preamp (modified to RIAA characteristics) with four E80CCs - when I got it, it was more than two decades old, with > 50000 hours of use on amp and bearings, and still on (1952) valves that had never been changed - on the tester they were still well inside the spec. Speaks for them, I think. The cartridge and the arm were 1970ies vintage, though - SME/Dynavector + step-up transformer.
Regards,
---mb---
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Not reallt - twice the current draw, different mU, completely different electrically - in regulated 12AU7 circuits the thing won't even light up properly!The E80CC is a good tube but not in any way a 12AU7 sub. I believe that used in 12AU7 circuits, due to not even getting the filaments heated properly, it produces lots of 2nd order harmonic distortion, very big sounding and easy on the ear.
I don't know if there is a best or sweetest sounding 12AU7A for every application. I have found 5 types that have given me excellent results in my system. If I had to rank them it would be like this: #1 would be the RCA clear top 12AU7A. Besides being a relative bargain in the vintage tube world, it offers the most detail, greatest transparency, most low level transient info, while still retaining proper tonality in my system. #2 would be the CBS 7730. It has virtually all of the aforementioned qualities of the RCA sidegetter but loses a little of the low level transient info. #3 would be the Genalex B749. I has the a velvety smooth tonal balance but does not seem to have the same level of transparency or speed of the RCA sidegetter. It scores high marks for "Snob Appeal" with it's packaging and the test documentation that is included. #4 would be Amperex Bugle Boy 12AU7. It is much livlier sounding than the Genalex B749, (more detail) but it's tonality is somewhat pumped up in the upper mid-bass. #5 is the Telefunken 12AU7. This is a somewhat frustating tube for me. It has great transparency and good low level transient detail, but it has a too lean tonal balance for my taste. These are my suggestions for the "best" 12AU7. All of the suggestions I have read so far would certainly be good choices, certainly better than any modern manufactured tube. Good luck on your choice.
I have tried a number of 12AU7's. Do try the tele ECC802s. They are not overhyped as "The best". They may not be as warm as the others such as the Amperex 7316. But after comparing them the Telefunken is really miles ahead in terms of the rest of the sonic areas, wide, WIDE staging deep tight bass, smooth extended high. All the positive virtures of the famed telefunken ECC83. It is the most HI-FI sounding in all areas.The price of submission of not purchasing the tele ECC802s, is that in your quest of the best 12AU7. All the cheaper 12AU7's etc. you may try may add up to quite a fair bit anyway. You may be better off just trying say the 802s of amperex 7316 to start. By no means are the rest of the tubes bad sounding, its just that the Telefunken ECC802s stands out on it own from the rest of the class.
Hi,
There is more to it than the tube:
Do you have cathode feedback in any form? How much are they loaded? What value od "bleeder" is used? e.t.c. All have huge inpact as well.mvh /Pär
warm and sweet?.. IMHO of decending order;Mullard long plate 1950's square getter on dual support
Mullard long plate round getter on dual support
Amperex long plate D getter straight from mica
Mullard long plate round getter on single support
Mullard short plate round getterI prefer any run of the mill 12BH7, 6CG7 or 6SN7 to any the above.
The TFK ECC802s and Amperex 7316 are excellent but not as warm and sweet as the long plate Mullard 12AU7.
I like Amperex 7316 most.
If you look for the great bargain, RCA 12AU7A Clear top is the one.
The concept of a "best" anything in audio, particularly tubes, is very wrong, there are really only good and bad, and among the good, many alternatives. Some will work for you and some won't. There is NO perfect tube, they all have strengths and weaknesses.In the 12AU7, obviously the Telefunken ECC802S and Amperex 7316 are safe bets and everyone jumps in with them, not only because they are good tubes, but because they have been heavily promoted and hyped as "the best". I like them.
For far less money, and a bit of searching, here are a few others:CBS-Hytron 5814A D-getter mid 1950's - every bit as good as the above. Perhaps not as tight in the bass as the ECC802S but warmer in the mids. Sweet but not sibilant highs. Quite warm but not bloated.
Tungsol 12AU7 early 1950's black glass - like the CBS above, not as warm in the mids, very sweet extended highs. Warmer than the ECC802S.
RCA 5963 1950's D-getter - fabulous tube if no more than 250v on the plates. Warm, great mids, nice highs, deep bass. A steal...
Raytheon 7730 late 1950's D-getter - a very distinctive sound. Warmest 12AU7 I have ever heard, but still clean with no loss of detail. Very big romantic sound. A little rolled on top compared to the Raytheon, but that's good sometimes.
CBS 7730 early 1960's O-getter - very much like the Raytheon, not quite as warm but a bit more direct.
Radiotechnique 6189/12AU7W early 1960's large straight plates - tight and warm. Great mids. Sweet highs, no match for the CBS 5814A, but still a great tube - but better yet (but dissed by dealers who don't have any) is the earlier Radiotechnique version with small staggered plates - very musical sweet romantic sound.
Raytheon 5814A D-getter early 1950's - might be my favorite 12AU7, makes the Telefunken ECC82 sound thin & weak by comparision, warm, deep deep bass, nicely extended highs with no sibilance, very musical.
A final oddball choice is the mid-60's Valvo 6067, which poitively stomps on the Tele ECC802S for tone and musicality, but I have very rarely seen them for sale.
I've just been forced into trying various 12AU7 types, because I purchased a used Atma-sphere MP1 pre-amp that uses a 12AU7 linestage (temporarily until I upgrade to the 6SN7 "Mark II" linestage). After messing around a bit with some of the types mentioned, I found that I already owned five NOS Amperex BB ECC82/12AU7 in a 25-year-old stash. These are great, but I don't have a clue where to buy any authentic ones these days. I did buy some Amperex 7316 via eBay. They seem to be readily available from that source, if you are willing to take a chance on the veracity of the seller. But when I tried implementing the 7316 in my pre-amp, I got the impression that it is not identical to a 12AU7 in terms of rp and Gm, just from the voltage measurements I took. I cannot find 7316 curves in Duncan's amps, and I don't know where else to look. Can anyone comment; what are the differences in rp, Gm, and mu, between 7316 and 12AU7, if any?
7316 & 12AU7 are pretty much identical. Mu is 17, rp as in 12AU7, ni difference in current draw, etc..Upscale has them, and a bunch of others. Should be pretty easy to get from a variety of places, a very common tube. The better one is the earlier D-getter version, also often branded Valvo and Philips.
Thanks Robert for your usual informative reply. Possibly the 7316s I was playing with when I made my observations were simply well worn compared to my NOS Amperex BB ECC82s, so for that reason did not appear to be identical electrically. I did try some GE-branded 7316s earlier in this pre-amp, and there was no contest between those tubes and the aforementioned Amperexes, in favor of the latter. Since then, I did acquire some true Amperex-brand 7316s, but I have not compared them to the ECC82s yet. I am really quite contented with the BugleBoy ECC82s and could probably live with them, even if I never convert to the 6SN7, but then I would not be an insatiable audiophile.
Robert,Excellent post!! You have hit the nail on the head. What I like, might not be your cup of tea and I find that it all depends on the amp I'm running my linestage with-it's that synergy thing. You even have listed some types that can be had for almost nothing at swap meets and Ham-fests. I'm going to have to try the RCA 5963s that I "stole" for $1.00 ea last fall. They were still in bulk packaging, never even opened! Maybe I'll wish I had bought more than 2 pairs.
Thanks for your post,
Tom
Mullard CV4003
Do a search on the Bottlehead forum. The Foreplay linestage uses 12AU7s and there are a bunch of folks with opinions over there who have tried nearly every type. Also check out Joe's Tube Lore in the FAQ section of this site.FWIW, I'm a cheapskate and don't buy many tubes, I pull them from old salvaged test gear. The RCA cleartops are very nice and affordable (especially for free!), but the best in my little collection are the Amperex (orange globe logo w/ white 12AU7/ECC82, Made in Holland stamp along the top). They really outshine most of the domestics I've tried. I have yet to try the Mullards...I'm still waiting to stumble on a match to the one I have.
Tom
My opinion, the Telefunken ECC802S, though the 7316 is a nice tube, also. Both are expensive.Check Kevin Deal's site. I think he has some of the best tubes of this type, around (my opinion, again).
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