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I'm tube rolling the 12AT7 output stage in Scott 310E. I read a lot of the old posts and based on what I read, I just tried Telefunken 12at7, RCA 6201, Mullard CV4024 and Sylvania GB-6201. To me, the Sylvania sounds the best and surprisingly the Mullard the worst. Does anyone have suggestions of other tubes I should try? Thank-you.
Follow Ups:
Expensive but the A2900 GEC and 6060 Brimar are some of the best ever made. Otherwise a 6201 might be worth trying as well if cost is a factor
Sitting here on the Group W bench
I am curious about that Mullard tube, as I was going to recommend some of Philips family 6201 tubes (ValvoMullardAmperex?) as they worked well in my Cary preamp which I think uses the tube in a similar fashion.The Mullard may not have been of the same type as a 6201. There were all sorts of '12AT7' types made in Europe and I have tried a few-especially Mullard-that were not useful at all. I am wondering if the 'Philips' 6201 tubes would be worth trying?
Edits: 09/13/20
Sounds like a brighter tube works best to your ears. You might want to try RFT 12at7, which might hit your sweet spot and are pretty inexpensive.
I had an amp that sounded a bit flat, and needed an 'etched' tube to compensate. The RFT was a perfect solution, and I have been enjoying it for years now.
Jon L,
I've tried quite a number of 12AT7's and variants over time:
12AT7 [8] 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1 TOTAL: 86 (> 8X)
7- Siemens & Halske E81CC- 3 mica- DE- NOS
2- Siemens & H- ECC81- NOS
2- Valvo 6201-White label- Hamburg- gold pin -NOS
2- Mullard M8162- UK- NOS
2- Sylvania GB 6201-steel pins- NOS 124/120,120/118
4- Sylvania GB 6201 gold pins- US- NOS
2- Amperex Bugle Boy-France- NOS
4- GE 6201 5 star- 3-mica- NOS
1- RCA -HP- NOS
4- RCA 6201 2-mica black plate- NOS
2- Sylvania JAN 12AT7WA 3-mica 1958 -NOS
4- Sylvania 12AT7WA-Gold Print- 3 mica -USED
4- GE -NOS
5- Westinghouse- black plate-NOS
1- Telefunken ECC81- USED
2- Philips JAN- NEW
1- ARC -RFT?- USED
2- GE 6201- 3 mica, sq gtr- NOS
1- Telefunken ECC81- NOS
2- Siemens&H-12AT7WA-3 mica-1-dbl gtr DE- USED
3- Siemens-12AT7WA- 3 mica- single gtr sup-DE-USED
6- Sylvania JHS 12AT7WA 3-mica, bl pl, sq gtr -NOS
2- Raytheon JHC 12AT7WA- blk plt 3-mica- NOS [*5
2- Raytheon JRO 12AT7WA halo gr plt 2 mc-NOS [*5
3- Siemens ECC81 by RFT?- military label- USED
2- Telefunken ECC81 by Siemens & H- Munich- USED
1- Valvo ECC81- Mullard Blackburn UK- USED
1- TungSol 6201 2-mica, grey plate-halo- NOS
4- Valvo 6201 Hamburg gold pin- dimp- DE- NOS [20
2- Siemens E81CC/6201 2 mica- stl pn- DE- NOS [13
4- Valvo 6201, Blue- 2 mica g pin- halo-DE '64- NOS [27
1- Siemens & Halske E81CC- 2 mica- DE- NOS [15I've found that the 12AT7 can make a significant difference in sound, especially in preamplifiers. Overtime, I've had seven pieces of gear using 12AT7's. But, one of the most revelaing for tube choices is a Peavy VMP-2 microphone preamp having 6X 12AX7 and 2X 12AT7's.
The 12AT7's settled into three basic categories:
1. Best all rounder: Valvo 6201, Blue-label / 2 mica / halo getter /gold pin Germany / 1964
_This seemed to work well every where I tried it: preamps, integrated amps, and in tube tuners. It's quite neutral, very responsive without being edgy. I use this one in the Audio Research SP10 and D115. The Valvo 6201 /White label/ gold pin/ Hamburg which is a little later- late 60's, is also very good in the same ways
2. Warm, Lush, Deep: Sylvania JAN 12AT7WA /3-mica / Black plate / Square getter /1958 -NOS
_I call this the "Bing Crosby 1939 Tube".It's a little dark, but so smooth and lush, that 's it's nearly irresistable and excellent when taming a system that seems harsh or cold. It may be too much in vintage gear.
3. Energetic, fast, balanced, very quiet: Siemens & Halske E81CC 3- mica, 1964 Germany
_ This might be in the category of best all-rounder, as it does everything well, but I notice in vintage McIntosh that it tightens things up and, clears the mud. Very responsive. This might be the best good choice for your Scott.
Bambi B
Edits: 09/12/20
Per your recommendation, bought and am listening to Siemens & Halske E81CC 3- mica, very happy with how it sounds. Thank-you.
fredtr,
I'm pleased that the S&H E91CC is providing good results. It's a fast tube- energetic- and seems to be tighten up detail and extend frequency range a bit in older gear. I always had very good results using that one in 60's McIntosh.
Bambi B
A timeless loudspeaker design. Altogether between my 2Ci's and my 3A Sigs, I lived with Vandys for nearly 20 years. Still have a big soft spot for Richard's products, although after drinking electrostatic kool-aid I'm not sure I couldn't go back.
Nice to see a veteran AA'er posting again.
Sondek,
Now there's another familiar name- good to see.
Yes, the Vandersteen 2's are now about35 years old. One of the tweeters is a bit dodgy and before the pandemic, I talked to Richard Vandersteen about rebuilding then all. I might though rebuild only the tweeter(s) and sell them, but have no idea what to replace then with; it's like telling you friends of 35 years with whom you've spent thousands of hours to piss off. I'm not sentimental about inamate objects generally, but cars and speakers that are objects with a direct experience are difficult to replace because they're literally, "just not the same."
I check in every so often, mostly here and Films. I've had a very busy time of it the last ten years,and anyway, that includes spending far more time listening to the sound from the three office computers than anywhere else.
It's quite good: Focusrite 2i4 USB audio interface to a pair of Mackie MR824 powered studio monitors. The quality of the Focusrite DAC and ability to place the MR824 tweeters at ear level makes this impressive for computer sound. The 2i4 has up to 4 inputs plus MIDI I/O so I can run HD music recording.
The secondary computer has an ASUS Essence STX sound card with replaceable op amps to tune the sound and that goes out to a Logitech Z2300 2.1 speakers system. That is a really good sound card and the Logitech in spite of Logitech being what is considered a sort of budget brand, the 2300 is very good. On computer forums I sometimes get offers to purchase the z2300 system. There are tube sound cards, but I've never heard one- have you?
It seems about as lively as ever here.
What have you been up to? What is your current system?
Bambi B
Me? Not much. Just trying to avoid the plague and squeeze in listening when I can.
I was turned-on to the audio equivalent of crack cocaine; directly driven full-range electrostats, about ten or twelve years ago. After that, my OCD grabbed my wallet and it was out with the old, and in with the even older, and some newer. If you care to look, there's details and some pictures attached to my profile.
Was good to see you posting. Don't be such a stranger around here.
Bambi I've not noted your posts for some time. Nice to see you are still around.
But a question: other than the top row how do you access your LPs? It doesn't appear like there is much space behind your component racks.
Another also, that Scott looks like new!
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
M3 lover ,Yes, I look in from time to time and it's great to see a few familiar names.
You asked about LP access. The photo compresses the depth as there is about 3' between the audio stands and the shelves. That allows access to the LP's (about 3,000), also to the connections on the back of the gear, and it gives a good spacing away from the wall for the Vandersteens. Yes, that's a 32" Sony XBR CRT in the background of the photo of the wiring. By the way, that's available free of charge to whoever can arrange two very strong people to move it,..
Yes, I've fallen quite a ways behind on audio, possibly because by the time I'd assembled the system in the photo: Audio Research SP10, ARC D115, Oracle Delphi III/ SME V / Audioquest 200 / McIntosh MR67 / Vandersteen 2C's with AQ King Cobra IC's and AQ Rocket 88 speaker cables. How's that for a dose of late '80's nostalgia? I thought the system was "good enough". Something interesting about audiophilia; when I'd achieved a certain level with the ARC / Oracle / Vandersteen system, I stopped listening to new gear, and thereafter didn't sense a need to change.
The Vandersteen drivers though are shortly going to Vandersteen for rebuilding- they're more than 30 years old.
I think I'd started posting in 2000, but by about 2010 out of necessity for work, I needed to obsess over computer performance (3D modeling and rendering) rather than audio. But that didn't prevent fussing over computer audio:
HP z620_2 (2017)(R7) > Xeon E5-1680 v2 (8C@ 4.3GHz) / z420 Liquid Cooling / 64GB (DDR3-1866 ECC registered) / Quadro P2000 5GB _ GTX 1070 Ti 8GB / HP Z Turbo Drive M.2 256GB AHCI + Samsung 970 EVO M.2 NVMe 500GB + HGST 7K6000 4TB + HP / HGST Enterprise 6TB / Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 sound interface> AQ Diamondback IC's > 2X Mackie MR824 powered studio monitors / 825W PSU /> HP OEM Windows 7 Prof.'l 64-bit > 2X Dell Ultrasharp U2715H (2560 X 1440)
[ Passmark Rating = 6280 / CPU rating = 17178 / 2D = 819 / 3D= 12629 / Mem = 3002 / Disk = 13751 / Single Thread Mark = 2368 [10.23.18]
[The above system is likely to be replaced in about three months, probably AMD Ryzen 9 4950X 16-core / 128GB RAM / the Quadro RTX 4000 replacement & etc. but the audio system will be the same.]
HP z420_3: (2015) (R11) Xeon E5-1650 v2 (6C@ 4.3GHz) / z420 Liquid cooling /64GB (HP/Samsung 8X 8GB DDR3-1866 ECC registered) / NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/ Samsung 860 EVO 500GB + HGST 4TB / ASUS Essence STX / Logitech z2300 2.1 / 600W PSU > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit (HP OEM ) > Samsung 40" 4K[Passmark System Rating: = 5644 / CPU = 15293 / 2D = 847 / 3D = 10953 / Mem = 2997 Disk = 4858 /Single Thread Mark = 2384 [6.27.19]
In those specs, note the sound systems, especially the HP z620 running a Focusrite 2i4 USB interface to a pair of Mackie MR824 (1" tweeter / 8" woofer") powered studio monitors. As I'm in the office often up to 14 hours per day, I hear music far more on the computer than on the main system. The ASUS Essence STX / Logitech z2300 2.1 (with wired remote) speakers system is also better than one might expect. That would be a very good streaming sound system.
I also moved ten times in twelve years in the Los Angeles area, and that always seemed to be a six month disruption.
Yes, the Scott 330D is in very good nick. I have a number of odd pieces of gear that I need to organize, including an EICO 12 EL84 integrated, McIntosh MR77, ARC SP8, ARC LS3, ARC D130, Revox B160 tuner.
I'm anyway thinking of changing to solid state power amplification as the D115 will cost $600 in new electrolytics and $1600-$2000 in power tubes in the next couple years. It's still running GE 6550C's which I can never replace anyway. Anyone with a good SS power amp recommendation for the SP 10 or in combination with the ARC SP8 is welcome. The SP8 still has it's original 1985 tubes.
Seems as though I haven't lost the knack of filling pages!
Bambi B
Edits: 09/14/20
you are somewhere in the greater Los Angeles area. I remember there were two really good dealers who sold Vandersteen and ARC, Audio Enchantment (?) and Havens and Hardesty (Orange County). Long ago I went through three versions of the Vandersteen 2s. I heard them once at the H&H store driven by electronics similar to yours and that was truly amazing. But I think the 2s were at least 6-8' from the nearest wall, and how many people can do that?
Of course the easy answer if you do replace your old ones would be one of the newer Vandy models. ;^)
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
Bambi, Jon, Thank-you for the recommendations. Bambi, your experimentation is impressive. I come across your postings from time to time doing searches. It is nice to see you remain active on AA.
I find it too be a bit too creamy and smooth in my system. I like Siemens triple mica E81cc, which can still be found for reasonable money, but real NOS Tungsol 12AT7 is the budget leader IME, both of which I prefer over the Tele's and Mullards.
I use GE in my line stage preamp!
I'm very happy with a pair of Brimar 13D9 tubes in my Raven Audio Blackhawk LE.
Colomor, Amperex, JAN Phillips, and some various ECC81's are others, but usually the Tele's are rock solid dependable and audibly sublime.
You might want to pick the best one you have now, do a thorough warmup listen with favorite tunes, and compare any newcomers to that.
Don't make any equipment changes while comparing, and first make sure all connections are buttoned down so you don't compare red apples to green apples etc.
"Bass is the place..the rest is filigree and lace" Doug Sax
Thank-you for the suggestions. The Telefunken and the Sylvania sound the best of the ones that I have tried and not a lot of difference between them.
I believe the 12AT7 is used as a cathode follower. If so, the type of tube has very little effect on the sound.
Al you are right, it is a cathode follower. But trying these tubes is to me, making a heck of a difference. It might in part be my system, ESl-63's, that tend to be very revealing, good and bad.
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