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I think that I may have been 'ripped off'. I bought a pair of RCA 7316 on Ebay, and there is apparently no such thing. The 7316 variant of the 12au7 was made exclusively by Amperex in Holland. Can anyone comment on this? I am waiting to hear from the seller. If he turns out to be dishonest, I will post his Ebay username.
Follow Ups:
I still see the bogus faked 7316 tubes that old guy radiator is selling. Reported the fakes to eBay many times to no avail. I'm collecting tubes for more than 50 years and this seller is faker than realjazzcat if he is still around. 7316 tubes only have Herleen codes ct0-ct5. eBay doesn't help we should alert people here so they are not defrauded. Also it ruins the tube collecting world by sowing distrust and fraud. I am very upset when I see his fake tubes and they are getting more numerous by the day. He routinely "gold" plates pins and fakes labels for example. Not to mention passing off 5963 tubes as 7316. We should band together to alert eBay.
Bill
The scammer formerly known as realjazzcat is now the tubemuseum USA outta New York.This old guy Rectum needs a enema. Not only is he polluting the tube section of ebay but any other section remotely resembling tubes. I check out Preamps and amps daily and he had 70 bogus tube listing in a row. Notified ebay and they appear to be gone.
Edits: 09/17/17
Well, it seems that old_guy_radiola is selling out.
"WE ARE SELLING THE BUSINESS SOON . TO DOWN SIZE IS A MUST."
Free local pick-up. Wish I lived on the west coast.
I have the tubes and, as described, they are RCA (Made in USA) with long black ribbed plates and square getters with foil strips. As to what such a tube is worth, I don't know. They were shipped without individual boxes, and no test reports. I therefore have no printed evidence as to dates or condition. They were loosely wrapped in bubble-wrap from which I had to peel them away. This is not a proper way to pack tubes for shipment. This guy should know better!
Thank-you for all of your excellent advice and information. Since I posted this message, I have sent four different e-mails to the seller about the authenticity of the 7316s that he is selling on Ebay (and elsewhere, as I discovered). He has ignored them.My take on this is that, if he is as experienced a tube seller as he asserts, he should know whether or not he is selling 'the genuine article', so it is ultimately his responsibility if they are not. Whether or not the ad accurately describes the tube that is pictured is not jermaine to the issue of authenticity.
I have not yet received the tube, so I cannot provide pictures.
s
Edits: 11/26/16
Ishmael. It is a seller's responsibility to address questions from his buyers about products they purchased. So sorry to hear that your seller ignores you.Many people dislike ebay due to lousy experiences with sellers they've dealt with. Speaking as a seller I have issues with those problematic sellers as they give all sellers bad reputations, including good ones by default just because they sell on ebay.
Could you disclose the name of the seller you purchased the 7316's from? And where else does he sell? You do have rights and can complain to ebay and Paypal. You should be able to get your money back. Possible Paypal is better to complain to but such complaints are not something I have dealt with. Others could provide more informative information on complaints.
Yes an experienced tube person should know what he's selling but I think that is a secondary issue. If the ad indicates or implies a 7316 and you do not receive a 7316 you should be able to get a refund regardless of the expertise of the seller. False advertising, whether intentional or not, is unacceptable. As mentioned, would you pay as much for an ECC82 or a 12AU7 as you did for the 7316 that is not a 7316?
Hope things work out!
Edits: 11/26/16
It' must be Old Guy Radiola (as mentioned earlier in this thread): https://www.ebay.nl/itm/272288072394
There are several threads here discussing his behaviour, which includes gold dipping of pins and then selling the tube as being extraordinary and never seen before. I've seen fake labels from him before. Somehow he's been getting away with all of it..
It is, indeed, old_guy_radiola. I can't categorically accuse him of fraud at this point, but I will post pictures of the tubes when I get them, so that a determination can be made.
from different angles. Descriptions are guess work and to make an accurate id we need photos.
If the tubes you bought are the ones sold by OG RADIOLA those tubes are definitely fakes.
1 the 7316 looks to be painted on and different paint than the "real" RCA ink
2. The tubes look to be black plate vintage RCA 12au7
3. i have not seen RCA 12au7 tubes with the words "radiotron" painted on the tube
I have quite a few of these of different vintages and with different markings, and all are genuine Amperex 7316's as far as I know. But regardless of the exterior printing or vintage, they are all totally identical internally. If the tubes you bought are similar to the Ebay ad Michael linked, I'd say it's almost certain you got fakes (and especially if you bought them from "old_guy_radiola"). None of the tubes I have are black plates and none have shiny plates (they are all matte gray). I cannot see any crosshatch in the top of the glass in the Ebay tubes that would indicate a genuine Amperex. All my 7316's have a round top getter, and while it's difficult to see in the Ebay photo, it doesn't look like the getter is round in those tubes. And it would be rather strange for the exterior printing to be in nearly flawless condition for tubes of that age. The Amperex screening comes off just by touching it on my tubes, so I'd guess that the printing on those tubes is pretty recent.
As heiney9 mentioned some 7316's have long plates and D getters. The 7316's I currently have are the Ct0 version which is the 1st 7316 version Amperex made. They are long plates with D getters that have a foil strip.
Ishmael: Speaking as Seller (I've sold about 2000 LPs on ebay & Audiogon) my position is if your Seller misrepresented the tube as a 7316, either as he was unaware of what he was selling or if he intentionally misrepresented the tube, he should be willing to refund your purchase should your tube not be a legit 7316. And if the Seller is a tube-centric seller, ala old_guy_radiola, he should have the expertise and done his due diligence to know what he's selling and market tubes correctly.
Most Buyers would spend more for a 7316 than almost all 12AU7/ECC82 tubes. And thus, assuming your 7316 is not a 7316, would you have spent as much as you did if the tube was marketed correctly as a 12AU7/ECC82? If not, that should be on the Seller and justifies a refund should you want one.
Well said.
And if your research showed that Amperex was the only manufacturer of a true 7316, even if they OEM'd and branded them for RCA, they would still have the cross hatch in the top glass as they certainly wouldn't have changed their manufacturing tooling and methods to produce an OEM tube for someone else.
With this particular seller, I don't know if he's printing the false labels or buying them like that, but for the number of tubes he peddles, he should certainly have enough knowledge to know what he's selling. I emailed him quite a while back about some 6922's he was selling (for a very premium price) that were clearly not Amperex. His response was pretty vile -- he knew what he had, I didn't know what I was talking about and was pretty much an idiot, and if I didn't like what he had for sale then I better quit wasting his time and go shop elsewhere. My email was polite and courteous, and when you get a response like that in return it's a pretty good indication that he's well aware of what he's doing....and doesn't like being called out on it. I have no proof one way or the other so my comments clearly fall into the FWIW category, but I stay well away from anything with his name on it.
Right on Bcowen.
FYI: The OP never mentioned who he purchased his RCA 7316's from. I but mentioned old_guy_radiola as I am aware he has what appears to be fake 7316's for sale on ebay. As you experienced, from previous threads and some of his ads I've read, he is notorious for deceptive sales practices. And in his current sales and completed sales I've noticed gold plated old stock tubes made by manufacturers that never made gold plated tubes of the type he's advertising. Seems a sweet business model he has, inflate the price of more common old stock tubes as they are (recently) gold plated.
I sympathize with your experience with that dude. I had a somewhat similar experience with one of the better known Internet tube guys. I felt he sold me tubes deceptively. The majority of which had tilted glass envelopes and charged me full price. Now if the tilted nature of the tubes was disclosed prior to purchase, that's fine, and I'd have had opportunity to decide if I would buy them. But that was not the case. Later, he called me on the phone and stated the tubes are fine and work as advertised. Without any aggression or demands, I mentioned he should have allowed me to decide if I wanted tubes with tilted glass and besides other vendors who sell tilted tubes discount them. In stated disbelieve he indicated no one does that, then inquired what vendors and prove it. I am aware of at least 2 well-known vendors that discount such tubes. So while holding the phone in one hand and searching for ads on a website with the other, this tube guy starts swearing at me and hangs up.
I am not sure the tubes were made by RCA. The tubes have the square getter, but not the common RCA upper mica that is cut on two sides and contacts the glass about 60%. However, some RCA did not have the cut top mica in the 1950s. The tubes are not Amperex either as the tubes do not have the folded glass on top. Also, that getter type was not used in the 1960s per seller. They are 1950s series tubes.As for best sounding 12AU7, look for either Brimar 13D5 or CBS/Hytron 5814. I have no idea how the RCAs sound.
Edits: 11/23/16 11/23/16
From my entry in the recent National 7316 thread updated to reflect your RCA 7316:Per your RCA 7316. I researched 7316's years ago. They were designed by Amperex as industrialized ECC82's/12AU7's. I believe the only real 7316's were made by Amperex in the Heerlen, Holland plant. Thus it is likely any tube labeled as a 7316 not made in that location is not a real 7316. Of course as 7316's sell for top dollar there is always a possibility that some shyster might re-label an Amperex ECC82 as a 7316 so be aware when you purchase 7316's.
Per the above I doubt RCA USA ever made a 7316. It is worth examining your RCA 7316 for signs it was made in the Heerlen plant and not in the USA. If you look down on the tube from the top is there a ridge, like a raised thin straight line that goes from one side of the top thru the raised nipple to the other side of the top? Or possibly 2 such raised lines with one crossing the other at a 90 degree angle such that they divide the top of the tube into quarters?
If you examine the tube's glass envelope, near the bottom edge, are there any Philips ID codes? If so what are the codes? Such codes usually ID the specific tube type and version and when and where it was made. These details, among other things, can distinguish an Amperex ECC82 falsely labeled as a 7316 from a real Amperex 7316.
Note: During the production run of 7316's Amperex made 5 or 6 variations of the tube. Although all are supposed to be superb sonically they have different characteristics.
If your seller was old_guy_radiola that increases the odds your tubes are not as advertised. There have been a number of threads on the Asylum about this seller. From what I've seen about his ads I would be cautious about dealing with him.
Edits: 11/23/16
Manufacturers routinely bought stock from other manufacturers and put their own brand on them. I would think that the brand would be much less important than knowing if it is actually a 7316 rather than a garden variety 12AU7 or some other variant.
Is there a way to tell the difference, either visually or with a tester. Did Amperex have a unique date-coding system? That might still be on the tube.
I would think it more likely that the seller simply described the tube as labelled.
A 7316 will work in place of a 12AU7 in most cases..Believe it or not,tube substitution guides don't list every industrial or military number that will work because there were so many numbers that existed that were clones of another tube.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Those are the most expensive 12AU7s I've ever seen.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Not really..How about a Telefunken ECC802?
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
It may be legitimate. RCA sold 6DJ8s, but never made them. This could be a similar situation.
Eli D.
Rca never made a 7316. It is possible, though unlikely, they put their brand on "real" 7316's which were only made by Philips in Heerlen Holland.
Philips manufactured several variations including a long plate w/ D shaped getter, long plate with halo getter and short plate w/halo getter.
True 7316's will have an etched manufacture/date code with a top line of Ct0 - Ct6 with the second line having a delta triangle and in the case of pre 1960 tubes a 2 character code and post 1960 tubes a 3 character code. ie; delta 9C or delta 1B2. And they were all gray plates w/2 staples.
Also you will note on all Philips tubes and most Euro tubes a cross hatch on the top of the tube envelope.
As far as real, genuine 7316's they must have those codes (unless they have been wiped) in order to 100% ensure they are the real deal. In the case of the codes missing then it's up to the buyer to rely on construction cues, which in the case of Philips tubes can be difficult.
To the original OP, if the codes are absent and the cross hatch is absent, then these are not "real" 7316's and even the seller may not have been aware.
If you are buying premium old stock tubes you MUST know what you're buying, what to look for and what questions to ask. Many sellers just parrot what's on the tube. Or in the case of old_radiola_guy, just outright lie and embellish.
As always "buyer beware"
If this is them, I see nothing in his ad that is misleading. What he states seems to be true based on the pics. Now if he is the one adding the silk screening and actually making the "fake" then he would be in the wrong.http://www.ebay.ca/itm/RCA-NOS-TUBES-TYPE-7316-MATCHED-PAIR-BLACK-PLATE-FOIL-GETTER-PREMIUM-12AU7-ECC82-/272288072394?hash=item3f65a242ca:g:DmIAAOSwgQ9Vsya6&autorefresh=true
I'll say it again, you as a buyer have to know what you're buying. If you don't know the construction or codes, etc. of what you're buying, you're going to learn some hard lessons.
Navigating tubes types is a very tedious endeavor. Many sellers have come across an old stash or parting out old electronics and they just write what they see on the tube or the box in their description. To me that's not being dishonest, that's just not knowing. At that point you as the buyer need to educate yourself.
FWIW, those are still nice tubes, but they aren't "true" 7316's.
Edits: 11/23/16
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