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Hola, All:
After a hiatus and selling off larger gear, I'm looking to put a system together. Miss the music (well, the experience of having a reproduced musical performance sound like/be a proper musical experience)!
I'm going small. Smaller, anyway, simpler, and less pricey, too. Likely computer served. Smaller monitor speakers - GMA Europas, Spica TC-50s, maybe Maggie MMGs. A tubed integrated amplifier around $1K max cost new or used is the target budget. 50 or 60 wpc would be a fine power range. Anything much less might not be enough?
What I'd appreciate specifically is some suggestion for amplification. High value for money stuff. This can be far-ranging. Here're some things I've been considering as examples.
- Jolida JD102. People seem to like the way it sounds, may be too little power?
- Music Angel KT88
- Dynaco SCA 35?
- Something from Consonance?
- Some vintage Scott, Fisher, Eico thing?
- I've seen C-J CAV-50s go for as little as $1,100-1,200; probably do the trick?
- The ARC integrateds look a little pricey/beyond the budget?
Thanks!
Follow Ups:
Hello,
Having owned MMGs, SCA-35, Citation V, etc. I can tell you right off the bat that an amp like the SCA-35 is going be wholly unsatisfactory for you. The problem lies with the fact that the Maggies aren't terribly efficient to begin with, and below 100hz, they are even less efficient. Sadly, the SCA-35 is rather puny in the bass to begin with as well, and if you attempt to EQ your way out of that situation, all of the amp's power will be sapped rather quickly.
A Citation V on the other hand has enough spare power to allow you to EQ a little more bass response out of the MMGs, and will sound very good. You won't get very high SPLs, but you will achieve decent listening levels with ample headroom. The CIT V is a good match for the MMGs. The Citation II is an even better match, and can really drive the MMGs well, even with added bass EQ. To my ears, the more correct sounding amps like Citation II & V are an excellent match to the revealing nature of the MMGs.
The MMGs are a pretty challenging load for most amps, but the HKs are a really good starting point.
My favorite 7189 (higher voltage 6BQ5) amp is the Sherwood S-5000. This amp will put out almost 25W RMS. The SCA-35 is barely 17 watts. I find the Sherwood S-5000 to be insufficient to drive the MMGs, so a SCA-35 is just going to be low SPL misery. Even my ST-70 was a bit weak for the MMGs.
You should really be looking at amps 50WPC and up.
Thanks for your note on this. I get it. This is as little power as I've considered ever. I'm keen now, though, to get small. I've found that about 75wpc, give or take a few watts, has been plenty ample to drive all the speakers I've ever owned.
Most of the speakers I own now have a sensitivity just over 90 dB. 25-35 wpc would just do the job. I mention the MMGs because I've also owned them, very much enjoyed them, and would consider getting another pair.
I was hoping for a smaller'ish integrated, ranging from 25-60'ish wpc. Don't have to sell me on the H-K Cit V and II. Great stuff. And I've got a nice C-J PV-12A preamp and updated MV-75 amp right now. This kit does the job, but I was hoping to shrink the footprint - without, of course, sacrificing quality. Could be a bit of a challenge.
- SJ
Hi again,
Ok, so you're not married to the MMGs... Well there are lots of nice smaller integrated amps to consider. My personal favorite is the Sherwood S-5000. It won't drive an MMG well at all, but for speakers 89db and up, it's fine. There's a lot to like about this amp - it's small, powerful for a 7189 pair (24W) and has an excellent preamp section with sensible, usable tone curves. The phono section is fantastic, especially if the amp still has the original Telefunken 12AX7s in it. Never tried it with moving coils, but with moving magnets from Grado to Stanton, I have been very satisfied with its performance. A selectable rumble filter takes subsonics out of warped records very nicely.
Downsides are the use of 7199s, and the higher plate voltage which makes standard 6BQ5/EL84 a bit of a gamble, and some versions can sometimes present with LF resonances in the power supply.
The earlier versions are best, they are slightly longer and have a slanted pre-amp section as opposed to the later version where the preamp tubes were under a square cover.
The Scott 299 is a good 6BQ5 amp, and looks really awesome, though I've never found one that sounded as good as the Sherwood S-5000, which has more power, better bass control, and better tone controls.
The SCA-35 is not one of my favorite amps at all. I find its sound to be a bit anemic, and the size of the output iron doesn't leave much mystery as to why. An upgraded ST-70, although not integrated, is a much better sounding and performing amplifier.
Now that new production 7591s are available, there are other Sherwood integrateds that I have always regarded as promising, although I largely divested myself of them back in the late 90's when 7591s were impossible to find. There are also some Sherwood integrated receivers that use 7868s, and have very excellent tuners (check if the multiplex unit is in there first!)
Fisher 500C is a great receiver provided it has been properly restored.
If you go the S-5000 route, drop me a line. Since it is my favorite amp, I have worked on a lot of them and know about some gotchas, tricks, and mistakes found in the schematics.
The S-5000 will actually drive MMGs if you restore them properly..The biggest gain in the S-5000 is unquestionably a 35uf film cap and the improved ground scheme..Just that alone with a basic 2.5 time increase in capacitance really makes the amp's stability improve a lot.
Honest amplification is better than excessive 2nd order distortion anytime.
"The S-5000 will actually drive MMGs if you restore them properly..The biggest gain in the S-5000 is unquestionably a 35uf film cap and the improved ground scheme..Just that alone with a basic 2.5 time increase in capacitance really makes the amp's stability improve a lot."
I suppose it's all a matter of taste. Being a bassist, I really don't like bass shy arrangements, and MMGs with an S-5000 just didn't have the dynamic headroom that I prefer. Of course this is a matter of taste, source material, etc...
Maybe this thread isn't the place, but I'd really like to hear more about your power supply mods on this amp. I too have noticed that the ground situation is a little odd on this amp; the bias supply has a floating ground on some versions, while on the earlier versions, the transformer had a center-tap on the bias winding. Where in the HV+ supply did you place the extra 35uf? I assume at the stage following the first current limit resistor?
Cheers!
Lots of votes for the HK Citation V. Can't disagree with this - I agree that's it's an excellent choice; both the HK Cit II and V are excellent. I already have a C-J PV-12A preamp (it has the optional phono stage which I feel sounds excellent) and Thalmann updated MV-75 amp. The imperfectly set up systems I've got cobbled together primarily for demonstration purposes with the intention to sell this larger, heavier gear is sounding pretty darned nice (even a bit surprisingly so), and I could just keep it, but it's gotta go. Smaller and less pricey still is what I need. Sure, a simple passive and a smaller-chassis amplifier might not be too much larger than an integrated. Fair enough, and it might be a good way to go.
Eli, I'd most certainly appreciate some more information on a good passive pre set up. I can certainly build, or mod, just about anything. Designing just about anything is a different story.
I'll look into a Cit V, as well as some of the other recommendations. Some I'm familiar with, some not.
Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions!
- SJ
"Eli, I'd most certainly appreciate some more information on a good passive pre set up."
What sort of source selection capability, if any, do you want? You did say something about a computer based source.
IMO, the price/performance champion of pots. is the hot molded carbon series from PEC of Canada. A pair of 50 KOhm KAs will give you control of both volume and balance. Get the controls from DigiKey.
The "captive" O/P cabling you braid yourself from 3 different colors of insulated silver plated copper wire. If you need wire for braiding, Allied has "Kynar" insulated wire wrap stuff that's quite suitable.
Need RCA plugs? Canare F-10s from MarkerTek get the job done WELL.
Eli D.
Eli,
Thanks. Is there a recipe/schematic or something I can follow to put all this together. I'd be happy to give it a try right now!
- SJ
I own MMGs, an SCA-35, and a Citation II (and a lot of other tube stuff). While the Citation will drive the MMGs, and the SCA-35 will not, my preference is to use a high-power SS amp with the MMGs. They love the power.
Thanks. I have not found the Maggies need lots of power. Yeah, the 35 wpc Dyna ST-70 didn't do it for my MG-IIBs, but I found, as you mention the Cit II will, something like the C-J MV-75 or Prem 11A - 70-75wpc - do just fine with MMGs or 1.6QRs. I would agree this is about as little power as you'd want/need. I've used bigger amps - Dynaco ST-416, C-J Prem 12s, Adcom GFA-555 II, Odyssey Stratos - all to good effect. PLENTY of drive, but don't think they sounded better or otherwise worked better than the amps in the 75 wpc range.
Having said that, there are good transistor integrateds that have plenty of power for the less sensitive speakers I own, and some of them are not so efficient, like the Maggies and Spicas. I'd prefer tubes, though. I was thinking a tubed integrated in the 50-75 wpc range would do.
I went for the Dynaco SCA-35 years ago, replaced the warped boards with ones with good components...and it's been working like a champ ever since!
V/r
jstrm
"Maggies" are POWER HUNGRY . Look for something with "stones". A H/K Cit. 5 might be enough for MMGs. Yes, the "5" is a power amp, not an integrated. However, it has a pentode I/P stage and a high I/P impedance. That means you can use a passive control center built around 50,000 Ω pots., in complete confidence. Build the passive control center yourself, as it's a very easy a DIY project. Hint: use short, unshielded, braided cables between the control center and the power amp. Also, make that cabling "captive" in the control center. Reducing the number of purely mechanical connections in the signal path definitely helps.
Yes, there are other pentode I/P amps in the same power range as the H/K Cit. 5, but their performance does not measure up. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish. Get yourself good sound.
Eli D.
Eli,
The recipe for that passive pre, please...
Get a H&K Citation V amp and have it rebuilt. Less expense vs the H&K Citation II. The Citation II produces a little more power, the Citation V is powerful enough.
I also highly suggest a used Blueberry preamp that has a great phono section (about $750 used). This exceeds the budget, but you can operate a passive preamp as described by Eli for the time being.
The only amp I am aware of that may or may not outperform a rebuilt Citation V is a Marantz 8B power amp. These are about $2K+ before rebuilding.
Smart purchases now prevents losing money upgrading later to the superior gear.
I'll agree with Eli as well. When using a 35 watt Audioprism or 45 watt CJ MV 50 with SMG's years ago, these amps only had a grip on small scale simple music. Had to haul out my Moscode 300 to play the big complex material.
The Audio SORO PP is a 20W 6L6 amp. It will work on any decent 2-way mini that is high impedance and/or moderately sensitive. An Audio Note AX-2 (bigger than a mini) speaker works well with them, but so does an LS3/5A that is true 8Ohm+ speaker (such as Stirling Broadcast). With tube amps, high impedance speakers will usually trump their sensitivity, as the LS3/5A example suggests.
Used SORO PPs used to be fairly abundant. The speakers I mentioned will cost between $1500-$2500.
Otherwise, it's pretty much vintage, China, Jolida and Rogue from what I've seen.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Line Magnetic 211IA or 216IA. Throw Primaluna in there as well. Rogue is a good choice, especially if you end up with MMG's. As others have said of the EL84 based amps, stay with speakers 90/91db and above if you like your presentation loud.
is great sounding with its passive line stage. 45 WPC will work well for many speakers. The 86 dB MMG is probably not one of you like things on the louder side.
ET
Used Rogue Cronus
A pair of EL-84/6BQ5 will deliver between 12-20 watts/channel -
there are a couple of exceptions - RM-10 @ 35 watts/channel - but can be hard to find a used one - new is an option - and this is an AMP ONLY...
Leben has also gotten good reviews
As to the vintage stuff - Scott, fisher, Dynaco, HeathKit, McIntosh Marantz - all have lower powered units that are great - if in good shape - head over to the Vintage forum....
There are some EL-34 based units - in the 35-50 watt / channel range - AMC comes to mind -
Happy Hunting
Typical EL84 sound. Sweet, musical, involving. Would be great with any speakers with at least 90-91 dB/w/m. MMGs are in the 83 dB/w/m range.
Opus 33 1/3
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