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While I don't regard myself a "tube guy", I have owned many tube pre's since I got into this hobby in the 70's. I've always liked that I could cater the sound to my liking to some degree by swapping in and out different tubes.
So I've posted a few times over the last few months...I've been tube rolling like a champ in search of that one tube that would make things just right. I've asked for and taken advice from folks on this site who clearly know more about tubes than I, and I've purchased and run both NOS and new tubes.
Okay, this is where it could get contentious...I'm now of the strong opinion that many of the new tubes are as good, if not better, then anything from yesteryear.
My most recent success came via EH Gold Pins. These are relatively inexpensive tubes, and to my ear equal or surpass the venerable Telefunken, of which I have tried in my pre. I was very surprised at just how musical and detailed these fine tubes are.
So my age suggests that I should be protective of the past, but I'm liking these new tubes very much.
P.S. Please include the Gold Lions, Tung-sol, Psvane and Northern Electric in my "very much like" list.
Rick.
Follow Ups:
I Completely agree Rick.
A word of warning about buying Vintage tubes.
First let it be stated that there are some great vintage tubes out there, makes like
Mullard, RCA, Philips-miniwatt, Brimar & Telefunken to name a few.
Some of us remember these tubes from the good old day’s & remember what
they sound like or do we? the passing of time can cloud the issue & add some gloss to the memory?
However before rushing to buy some we should consider a few things first.
1. How Much!!!!!! are they really worth it?
2. Can a future supply be guaranteed?
3. They’ve been sitting on a shelf for 40-50 years, are they still ok?
4. Will the seller take them back if their not up to spec?
5. Have they been tested by the seller?
6. Are they really new?
7. Will the seller guarantee 40-50 year old valves?
If the answer to the above is yes them, you’ll probably be ok.
If not then just maybe a new valve that’s currently in production could be a good bet after all? I find Psvane & Full music are just wonderful.
You pays your money & makes your choice.
A word of warning about buying reissued tubes.First let it be stated that there may be some great reissues tubes
out there. However before rushing to buy some you should consider a
few things first.1. How Much meanwhile!!!!!! Are they really worth it?
2. Can a future supply be guaranteed?
3. Are their technical specs really comparable with vintage tubes?
4. Will the seller take them back if their not up to spec?
5. Have they been tested by the seller?
6. Do they really sound like vintage tubes?
7. Will they reliably work for years as used from old stock tubes?
8. Under which poor working conditions were they possibly built?If the answer to the above is yes then, you'll probably be ok. If not then just maybe a vintage valve that's no longer in production could be a good bet after all? I find most of the old European and some US stuff just wonderful. You pays your money & makes your choice.
Nunki
The times, they are changing...
Edits: 08/17/12
I Completely agree Nunki
In terms of sonics, new tubes might be catching up or even surpass (GASP!) the sonics of older NOS tubes. For example, the new EL34 PSVane Black Treasures and Gold Lions are highly rated by those who have compared them against NOS EL34s tubes.
However, I am of the opinion that NOS EL34s such as Mullard Xf2s are more durable and will outlast these NEW pretenders such as EH, Mullard Re-issues, Gold Lions and PSVane treasures ... etc and what not.
Another example can also be found in NOS tube rectifiers.
NOS RCA 6U8's.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
... and put my Mullard xf1, xf2 and xf4 EL34s in a safe place where they can continue to appreciate. Meanwhile I'll listen to my reissue Gold Lion and (sorry, Jim) JJ KT77s because they sound ever so much better than the original Mullards :-)
I guess only time will tell, no?
In that case, will you take one for the team? ;) LOL
In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy music from my NOS Mullards EL34 Xf2s. They are likely to last for another decade.
only ("...") buy reissues. if sold again, half of their price is lost. old stock tubes keep their value or price has even risen...N.
The times, they are changing...
Edits: 08/11/12
Nunki said what he said. He used the fool word. He didn't swear. Why do the moderators here feel obligated to blank it out? Agree or disagree, why blot out his right to free speech? Very wrong.
no, no mendel, you are wrong! please do not blame the moderators! i myself blanked out that word, made an edit. hope, everything is now o.k. again...:))
The times, they are changing...
Edits: 08/12/12 08/12/12
Ok good to hear! For what it is worth, I agree with you assessment of the Gold Lion reissues and most other new production tubes. Most sound crappy and don't last. NOS usually sounds great and lasts a long time. No question which is the better value for my dollars!
You are entitled to your opinion of course. But I'm entitled to also say that while at one time I might have agreed with you, at present I believe your views are no longer widely held.
Jim:
I respect your opinion and also respect the service you provide to the public, both through you tube sales and service, and the knowledge you share on this site. Everyone knows the tubes you supply are tested and graded better than anyone. Heck, I am a very satisfied customer ( although it was for a set of NOS Russian 6p3c-e which still test and sound new after over a year of use). I know the day will come when NOS will be extinct and new production will be the only game in town (although thanks to our stocking up, that day will never come for me and many of my fellow tube-heads).
Just to clarify, my views are based on experience with my amp and preamp, and not some preconceived view that older must be better. Two of my all-time favorite tubes, the EI KT 90 and Russian 6p3c-e are from the 1990's and 1980's. A tube does not have to be 50 years old to be good.
I don't want to go into the various issues I have had with new production tubes, I will only state that I have tried many (EH KT88, EH 6CA7, JJ KT77, Tung Sol 6L6str, Genelex KT88, Penta Labs KT88, Treasure Series 6CA7) and have had issues with all but the JJs (surprise!) the Pentas and the Treasures. Maybe my bad luck. Didn't get those from you (tubestore.com in Canada to save duty), maybe I should have.
I only suggest that people consider picking up some old stock tubes before they are all gone. If some people are good with all new stock in their amps, I am OK with that to. Just make sure you you get your tubes from somebody you can trust to weed out the duds.
I'm sorry to hear of all the trouble you had with the new production tubes! I was not aware of that - and honestly the huge majority of people don't have any trouble at all. Somehow you got WAY more than your fair share!! Boy, I can't remember the last time I had any trouble with an EH 6CA7 or 6L6GC Tung-Sol.
I agree with what you said - there are some NOS tubes left that people should try if they can; but even if they can't, at least now (unlike 10 years ago) you aren't just out of luck if NOS is out of reach. And despite Mendel's bad experiences there are now a number of remarkable new production tubes.
Thanks for taking the time to post your reply!
I just had a Tungsol 6l6GC take out my Mesa Boogie MKIIC+. It cost me a hundred bucks to get repaired.
However, I did not give up on them because I probably left them in there too long. I put another set in, but this time I will be more careful with the hours.
I don't bother with NOS tubes, and yes I have tried some. With good testing by guys like Jim Mcshane and better quality new production tubes, I don't see the reason for it.
I would agree, so much myth on NOS tubes, with newer tube gear with much better balance, and much more nutural new built tubes can sound just excellent. Pravane 12ax7's I just received sound just wonderful, and I've switched them out with Tele smooth plates, mullards, philips, Brimars etc and and what I heard was kind of the best of all the above tubes, but better dynamics or speed if you like.
PJB
never mind, sir. i am not keen on beeing loved or everyboby`s darling here. just beeing accepted is pretty enough. but i pledge to improve the "sound" of my postings (and my knowledge of english language too...).
:))
The times, they are changing...
Some may buy NOS as an investment, but most buy tubes to use in their amps. Some great new manufacture power tubes such as the Genelex KT88 are a perfect example of wonderful sonics. That tube substancially changed the prices of NOS & used KT88 tubes. Personally I am glad I sold my Tung Sol KT88s before the new KT88 was offered to the public.
Pre-amp tubes sound different in different circuits thus new manufacture may be the perfect ticket for great sonics that suit the individuals requirements. I do use NOS preamp tubes such as Brimar CV4004, Tung Sol 6SL7 round plate & Sylvania 6SN7GTA. These tubes suit my personal sonic requirements, but may not suit another application or another persons perception of great sonics in their circuit.
A tube supplier such as Jim McShane spends a lot of QC time with regard to selling new manufacture tubes with a guarantee & is not dropping a $50 fee on a tube for that QC and other info such as maintaining a good data base of new manufacture tube high performance applications. After all, NOS will run out.
i am very sorry, but i can not understand that hype about GL KT88 reissued power tubes. i tried them in octave V70, welter ACPP60 and mc intosh MC275 power amps/monos. these KT88 make a thin, coloured sound that has nothing in common with dynamic but true and neutral performance. no one can say, i used them in wrong gear.
i purchased them twice and sold them twice again (and lost half of the money twice!)
Nunki
The times, they are changing...
"only fools buy reissues."
I buy and use reissues all the time with great success. Are you calling me a fool?
How about all the other people here that buy, use, and thoroughly enjoy them - are you calling them fools too?
I think you owe MANY of the inmates here an apology. That remark was absolutely uncalled for.
I totally agree with Jim. I use gold lion re-issue tubes in my amp and they sound wonderful. Just because tubes are old doesn't mean they are good???
Comparing NOS to new requires a great audio system or say honest system that amplifies without much coloring of the audio input. In an ordinary amplifier one may not hear what the NOS tube is capable of sonically.
An exaggeration is a tube type guitar fuzz box (petal). Toss any 12AX7 in the petal & crank it up, it will sound bad to the bone feeding a Marshall full stack amp.
The high price of the Psvane is absurd -- there are many great NOS 6SN7 tubes for less money. Just make sure they are quiet, as sellers often give the tube tester results, but don't tell you that tubes are noisy.
A little off topic (I have not ranted in a while), but I believe "NOS" stands for "new old stock" - basically an unused tube (other than possibly testing or break in for some military tubes) that has been sitting on a shelf for a while. That could apply to new production or old production tubes.
In other words, your title is "New vs New".
Vintage tubes, on the other hand, refer more to old production tubes (which could include old production Russian military tubes for example).
Anyway, on something closer to the topic, I work off the philosophy of vintage input tubes and newer production power tubes (of course, with lots of exceptions).
On a general basis, I just can't see paying the high prices for new production "premium" input tubes when so many excellent vintage input tubes can be had for a fraction of the cost.
Power tubes are somewhat on the other side of the spectrum - you can get excellent quality 6550s/KT88s for significantly less than vintage Genalex or Tung-Sol (don't bring manufacturing reliability into the equation, as I have had NOS, never out of box cardboard dust-covered dud Tung-Sol 6550s).
Try and get a nice quad of NOS WE 300Bs versus some new production variations (I have a push-pull 300B amp) - the choice on that one is simple.
"That could apply to new production or old production tubes."
Close, but not quite. Your definition of new is spot on - but old stock means new, unused tubes no longer in production. For instance - RCA tubes can be NOS, as can many of the famous name brands we all know. But so can Ei, Tesla, and other tubes that were produced fairly recently - but are not made anymore. Even individual tubes from a given maker can be NOS if they are not in production anymore such as the 6922 or 7591XYZ Sovtek, etc.
I call my tubes old stock because I can't tell if they are used? They would be NOS by your defintion if they were new. I am not a big fan of ANOS, lightly used, and some other ways people identify such tubes, just my preference. I understand "tests like new" by sellers better than claiming NOS, if they are honest and I assume have good testing equipment.
Steve
Edits: 08/08/12
You said better what I tried to say.
I should have written "newer" instead of "new", with the connotation of more recent but not currently produced.
My experience is that output tubes are close to on par in many respects. Signal tubes don't seem to be. But I think the really important thing is that it depends on the specific tube type in question, as well as the application, and that you can't generalize across all tubes that new is always better than NOS.
I would absolutely agree with your assertion...it's very often though that the consensus is that "they don't make them like they used to", and although I have greatly enjoyed the NOS tubes I have tried, I have equally enjoyed the new tubes.Rick.
Edits: 08/08/12
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