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Would appreciate 6922(or CCa, 7308, E188CC, etc.) recommendations from those of you who have especially used them as output tubes either in your DVD players and/or USB DAC/DAPs.
I want to avoid those that tend to warm or cloud. I am looking for those that will offer greater transparency, dimension, and detail - and still be smooth (even sweet) at that top.
For what it is worth both my preamp and amp are tube designs.
Your feedback will be very helpful and appreciated. It's an expensive investment and I want to narrow it down to those tubes that will produce what I am after given the price tag.
Thanks for you time and thoughts on this.
Appreciated.
Follow Ups:
Telefunken 6922's would be my recco. The Siemens have great frequency extension at both ends of the spectrum, but at the cost of some mid-range. I would not go so far as to say the Siemens have a scooped out sound, but they lack just that bit of flesh in the mids that the Tele's retain. The Tele's have 98% of the frequency extension of the Siemens, but they have a mid-range that makes for a more believable and satisfying presentation IMO. I suspect that you'd be happy with either tube, but maybe just a little bit more happy with the Tele's.
the circuit is setup. The operating points can bring the mids if the Siemens is worked with. I have found this to be true of many tubes. The Sylvania, not to get off topic, 1929 to 1931 27 mesh plate sound the best if near its max operating points and the RCA 76 needs to be right at its max and it outshines all other 76 types. Realizing that not everyone is going to tweak their system, to me, it is the only way to get the most out of each tube and isn't all that hard.
The Elaborate DAC=Johnny's Balloon Meshplate 27 Balanced Preamp=Balanced Six Pacs=Newform Research 645
iRiver H140/MB Balanced dac/amp/Ultrasone Ed. 9/JH13 Pro IEM's
see images at: www.pbase.com/jamato8
My first place goes to Telefunken E188CC and second place to the vintage (60s) Siemens. Third place are the milspec 7308s from Amperex - Holland or US.
Observe, don't think
Thank You.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8
,
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
late 50's or early 60's E88CC (6922) That's want you want
.
Siemens is again the tube you want. They are very clean, great detail, with a strong signal, no mushy or bloated sound. The downside is that they have become very expensive. The 70s version while not as good is obviously cheaper and more likely to be really NOS and frequently NIB.
Steve
Most of the early 1960's RCA labelled made in Germany 6922 tubes are in fact re-branded Siemens Munich manufactured E88CC tubes with the three-lined etched codes. These tubes are readily found NIB and NOS and are not that expensive. They can be found from as little as $65 each. Reference photos of 1960's vintage made in Germany tubes are attached. The final photo displays the three-lined etched code A-phi 1-not-equal-to-sign 5C - meaning March 1965 production.
Or as cheap. At this point, everyone already knows about the RCA relabeled tubes. They tend to be priced accordingly, when/if you can find them.
Jack
Edits: 07/05/12
And, Joe references them in his list of Siemenes 6922s... specifically the "A" frames.
In music as in life... one is always on the learning curve
First, thank you all for the input.
The CCas are prohibitive for me... As I shop around they range from 4 to 6 bills
But given that, where would your next choices within the early Siemens be?
7308/E188CC
6922/E88CC
Some will say that the 7308 is vastly better than 6922 and they are entitled to that opinion. I can't say they aren't certaintly right. The 6922s however, as NOS are very, very good.
I have used the Siemens 6922 E88CC on the output of a CD player, it worked as well as I could have wanted as described above. I have not used the 7308 by Siemens. I use a Mullard CV2493/E88CC-01s which is comparable to a 7308 I am told and have read. That tube is also great with lots of top end sparkle not what you would expect from a Mullard. It would be a close call sonically believe it or not but pricewise I could get the Mullards for under $200/pair and obviously real NOS NIB and have come to prefer them. See which one you can get more cheaply I doubt you'll find Siemens 7308 NOS/NIB for a lot less than $300/pair, Used maybe.
Steve
Mine would be used as amplification tubes on the AMR DP 777... as it has its own preamp.
My latest price on premium 7308 Siemens from a very reputable dealer was $450. Compared to the 6922 E88Cs at $350.
I really appreciate your input. It would be great if all of us were sitting together in a room being able to swap out 6922s. It's a little tricky stepping into this territory. You can't turn around to a tube dealer and say, "Sorry, I don't like the way these tubes sound in my system." Yet at prices between 400 and 600, one thinks they should have some recourse. ;) I know in high end audio there is no justice.
I have a matched quad of Cca, from 1964 (I think). Supposedlythe holly grail of this tube family. To me, they sound like 7308s. I lived with them in my Einstein Absolute Tune for a few months, but eventually went back to 6922s which I generally preferred.
Jack
They are equivalent tubes dating all the way back to 1956. Some were made by Philips in Heerlen, Holland, others were made by Valvo in Hamburg, Germany, others were made by Siemens in Munich, Germany and others were made by Telefunken in Ulm, Germany.
So true, but you would hope that the journey of "experience" would flush out the reality among those of us who are tube addicted. :)
Your input has been helpful,Jack... because those 3 are the Siemens I haven been considering. Actually 2 of them since the CCas are out of line for me getting into 5 to 6 bills.
Can you you say a little bit what the similarities and the differences were between 7308/E188CC and the 6922/E88CC for you? And what had you stick with the latter?
I've liked what I heard of in the sound of Einstein Absolute so I know where somewhat in the same ballpark of listening taste.
In my experience, there are slight tonal balance differences between the two. Both are clean and crisp, with a Seimens "house sound", but the 6922s had a flatter FR, with more extended treble and deeper bass, while the 7308s had a slight emphasis on the lower treble and mid bass.. The other difference was that the 7308s were a bit more forward, with a shallower soundstage.
BTW, you really want the 6922s before they went to the "A" frame in the late 60s. I/m not sure on the exact year they switched.
Jack
Jack,
Thanks... real helpful... and I get it about the "A" frame...
I assume by "FR" you mean frequency response...? And, therefore, a purer sound.
In music as in life... one is always on the learning curve
Jack,
Thanks... real helpful...
In music as in life... one is always on the learning curve
The 6922s have better extension at both extremes, and do a much deeper soundstage.
Jack
So, you are saying that the Siemens 6922/E88cc... give you a better response than the 7308/E188CCs?
Better is a subjective term, but yes, in my opinion. I'm not a big fan of 7308s despite in theory they are supposed to sound better, especially quieter. I just haven't found that to be true in my case(s).
As always, YMMV
JackPS. Make sure that they are from the 50s or early 60s.
Edits: 07/04/12
Of course, it's always system and ear related. It would be wonderful if there was a tube library similar to the Cable Co. :)
Re: PS - Yes, from what I have been told try not to go later than 68. And try get the ones with the date code etched on the outside rather than on the metal tag within the tube. I presume that came after '68.
Thanks, again
In mid 1965, Siemens moved to stamping the three-lined code on an aluminium clad that was attached to the top mica support within the tube's glass envelope. This was only done for a period of 6 months or so before the appearance of the 2-lined A1 6-letter code.
Thanks Tre', I did check Joe's notes out.
.
The specific gear is the AMR DAP 777...
Rocket Logo 6H23's from Upscale Audio.
They are not expensive, but they should sound similar, if not better, to old production Siemens, which seems to be the type of sound you are leaning towards.
I've owned/used pretty much every old production 6922 type, though in preamp gain stages/not CD player output stages and that's what I would start with.
...they only have driver grade in the tube available at Upscale.
In music as in life... one is always on the learning curve
Ask them.
Thanks, I will, but I doubt it, since Kevin doesn't recommend driver grade for DACs and/or CDs players in the other 6922s.
In music as in life... one is always on the learning curve
Thank you... Will definitely check into them..
In music as in life... one is always on the learning curve
If you contact Upscale, you might want to ask their opinion of the Type 3 in terms of your application and for what you're looking for sonically.
Although I've never used them in a DAC, I've been very pleasantly surprised by how good these sound in my preamp. And for $35 each in Platinum grade, your financial exposure isn't very large.
Joe
These tubes will be used in the amplification of the preamp within the AMR DAP... the stock ones are a Russian 6922 type that they have put through a some kind of baking process. It's NOS 6N11 high-speed valve tube. They do sound excellent... and those who have upgraded to the vintage 6922s have said that when doing a comparison. So, I suspect, what one is looking for is that extra push into detail, dimension, etc.
AMR suggested either the Mullard 6922s or CCas. Thorsten Loesch who designed it referred me to the references 6922s, etc that Joe put together for us on AA. My hunch is that I am looking for cream on the coffee :)
According to AMR, it will take ECC88, E88CC, 7308, Cca, 6DJ8, 6922, 6H23n-EV optional
In music as in life... one is always on the learning curve
Okay, I better understand what you're trying to do. The Siemens 6922 and CCa from the 60's are excellent tubes. They tick all the audiophile approved boxes of resolution, an even frequency response and throw a really good soundstage.
I have a mixed set of 4 Siemens 6922 CCa and a pair of Siemens 6922s in my preamp currently and they are really excellent. Everyone's taste is different, however, and I always ultimately find them a little soul-less, for lack of a better way of putting it. But that's just to me, naturally.
My sonic biases always seem to lead me back to Lorenz, Amperex and Telefunken.
Hope you find the right ones for you.
Joe
Have you heard much difference between the Siemens 6922 and the CCa's?
Yes, I wish there was a tube library similar to the Cable Co, where you could say send me a pair of Seimens, Amperex and Telefunken.. and I will let you know which ones I would like to order :) That would be awesome... especially at the going prices.
Another member, really likes the Telefunken E1888CC, then the vintage Siemenens... but you're talking equivalent CCa prices or more. Or the Amperex 6922 PQ, pinched.
I particularly want to avoid a tube that warms or clouds the system. My preamp which was custom modified uses 27s... so there's a lot of soul going on. Thanks for your input... really appreciate it.
In music as in life... one is always on the learning curve
Unfortunately, as helpful as some kind of lending library like the Cable Company has except for tubes would be, it's just not practical.My c-j Premier 16LS2 preamp runs on three tubes per channel and I've never heard the Siemens CCa and 6922s separately so I can't really comment on how different they sound. The preamp is designed to basically combine the tubes for each channel into one composite triode.
If I had to guess, and it's just that, I'd say that similar vintages of both sound pretty much the same. The CCa's are supposed to be selected for low noise, but I don't know if that in reality translates into a quieter and more resolving sound. Maybe, maybe not.
I do have a pinched waist Amperex 6922 I've used as the input tube for my Premier 140 amp and IMO that is a very special tube in that application. They're also very expensive.
I have and like TFK 6DJ8s and 7DJ8s. They're just a small amount less resolving in my opinion than the Siemens 6922s and with just a touch more warmth and musicality. My taste runs toward a slightly warmer sound and that's why I really like the Amperex house sound, as well.
The most neutral tube I've heard that seems to combine the resolution of the Siemens with just that touch of TFK warmth is the 60's vintage Lorenz 7DJ8. I've never heard the 6DJ8 variant but in my limited experience and in my preamp, the 6DJ8s and 7DJ8s of the same vintage sound basically the same to me.
The Lorenz 6DJ8 family members from that time period seem to be really difficult to find, however.
Hope this helps some.
Joe
Edits: 07/07/12
I basically don't want the tube to alter the tone of my system which is highly musical and engaging... just open it up more... give the playback more dimension, detail and air... but not to color it - if I am making myself clear. Otherwords, I'm not looking for a tube that would bring additional warmth to what I already have.
But, that's always hard to second guess... because so much is determined by the synergy of all the parts.
Alex
In music as in life... one is always on the learning curve
It does help, Joe... You/ve been very generous with your experience and knowledge... And it very appreciated.
Alex
In music as in life... one is always on the learning curve
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