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Anyone have any experience with the red label ones made in Hungary from the early 70's, for preamp line stage or phono section applications?
Another option I'm looking at are the Tesla E88CC GP from the 80's for the same applications as above.
Comments would be very welcome.
Thank you,
bill
Follow Ups:
OK, just received my matched & balanced Tungsram red label E88CC quad from The Tube Store and have them plugged in cooking away. I have to say, very impressive right out of the box, oh boy!!
Thanks again guys.
bill2
I also Got some of both these tubes fron Zietman on ebay. I prefered the Teslas in my system. But they do sound very similar to current production JJ. The Tesla might be a better choice because they shouldn't have the problems JJ has. Tungsrams sound good but they where a little vieled IMO. But that has a lot to do with synergy YMMV. I also had trouble with the Tungsrams fading quickly in my pre amp. I haven't had the same problem with the Teslas. they are bothe a good buy compared to NOS. Theres really no other option for me.
thank you for your helpful comments!
Bill2
I use this family of tubes in the pre-amp section of my cd player. Of the two, the Tungsrams sound best in my system. Like Bambi, I too was so impressed with them I bought more. They have more weight than every other tube I tried in that designation. I thought the Teslas were inferior though I don't clearly remember them. If you're running E88s, you might want to think of using E188s. They have more of what their younger siblings have. My favorites are Valvos, Siemens and Amperex.
Have fun. :~~>
Mr bill2,
In 2005, I tried a pair of Tungsram red label E88CC as the SP10 line stage gain tubes and was so impressed I bought 28 NOS from Zeitmann in Budapest. These included test results and the month and year of manufacture, which included from 1968 to 1979. The red label is supposed to denote military issue and the yellow label for consumer use.
I believe Zeitmann is still selling both the Tungsram and the Tesla you mention, but I have not tried the Teslas.
In December, 2009, I changed the 6- Sovtek 6H23n-EB (6922) from 1990 that were the non-gain tubes in an Audio Research SP10 preamplifier. Four of the six gain tubes- 2 of 4 phono stage and the 2 line stage tubes were changed for Valvo E188CC's (7308) from 1963-65.
SP10 tubes:
V1-V2 > Amperex E188CC, 1964 [phono gain]
V3-V4 > Valvo PQ E188CC, 1963 [phono gain]
V5-V8 > Tungsram E88CC, 1968, 1970
V9-V10 > Valvo PQ E188CC, 1965 [line stage gain]
V11-V12 > Tungsram E88CC, 1969
The Tungsram is supposed to be copied from the Siemens- one of the best- As I have Some Siemens also, I can say the Tungsram have a similarly focused and energetic sound. These are articulate, dynamic, open, very quiet, have well-balanced sections, seem well-made, and have a reputation for being very tough- recommended for two of the preamps that pushing them along- the Audio Research SP10 and the Audible Illusions Modulus preamps. AI has or had a tubes recommendation page on their site suggesting them among the NOS.
The Tungsram I would place among the top tier of E88CC/6922's. They are good enough I feel guilty that their sonic qualities are wasted as cathode followers and the like- better to use tested- and cheaper-EH6922. And, given the stupidly high prices of NOS E88CC, the Tungsram are among the better values. I'm very pleased to have a life-time supply!
Cheers,
Bambi B
Did you try those Tungsrams in V1 & 2 and V9 & 10? How did they sound compared to ?
PHOTO: Main System: Oracle III_SME V / Cambridge Audio 640C / McIntosh MR67 > Audio Research SP10 > ARC D115 > Vandersteen 2C. Oneac 11 amp power conditioner. No audio connection to TV,..
Chuck Y!
It happened that V9 and V10 were the reason I changed tubes on the SP10- V9, a Sovtek in the SP10 since 1991 was becoming noticeably noisy. When shopping for the 6922 I wanted to eventually use in the Audio Research SP10, I tried the original pair of Tungsram E88CC in V9 and V10, which are the line stage gain tubes. To evaluate the Tungsram, I used on the line level a Cambridge Audio 640C v.2 CD player and a 1989 Revox B160 solid state tuner. It was that positive experience that prompted me to buy a pile- 28- of the Tungsram.
However, when I eventually did my first major tube changes to the SP10, I used a pair of Amperex E188CC / 7308's in V3 and V4 and Valvo E188CC for V9 and V10 and Tungsrams for the 6- non-gain tubes, V5-V8 and V11, V12. V1 and V2- the first phono positions are Gold Aero MC phono selected Amperex E188CC that were put in about 1991- they're still almost 95%!
The Tungsram sound was dynamic and transparent generally, only a tiny bit warmish, one of the few tubes that seemed to have a lot of the qualities of the tube it was supposed to have been based on - the Siemens E88CC. Certainly, it had a deeper, wider image, and seemed more nimble and with a fuller timbre than the Sovtek. The energetic but slightly liquid quality of the Tungsram is the reason I thought it would do well in tube CD player output stages and it gave a very attractive quality to the very neutral B160 tuner. They are know to be tough too- supposedly lasting as well under the conditions as the Sovtek and EH. Then and still, I feel the Tungsram is probably too good for secondary, cathode follower use and the EH6922 would work as well. I think of the Tungsram as a serious gain position tube. They're very quiet too and the ones I bought dating from 1968 to 1979 had the triode sections measured by Zeitmann as equal to 1-3%, as close as I've ever seen.
In the right place, I think these are are a bargain. They do take a bit of time to burn-in perhaps 50-60 hours. As I have some new interconnects (Audioquest King Cobra) and speaker wires (AQ Rocket 88) on the main system- I changed too many things at once- I'm still waiting for everything to settle down, but I can hear the potential.
Cheers,
Bambi B
Bambi, thanks for your comments.
I'm using NOS 6h23's in my line stage and have voiced my system around them. They have worked well for me and they seem to last forever. :-) But the phono stage is another issue entirely. Everything I've tried that really sounded good (to me of course) has always died early so I used 6h23's and or Sovteks and a warmish cartridge to compensate.
In your earlier post you mentioned the EH6922 and I have seen others complement the tube as well, but used in different equipment. I had a quad I picked up in another piece of equipment so I tried them in V9 to V12 and I thought they just muddied up the ARC's clarity. I also tried them in V1 to V4 and thought the same x2. Since you mentioned using them in V5 thru V9 I gave that a try thinking that if nothing else, since these are not critical gain stage slots it wouldn't hear the sonic's much and I'd save a few bucks
I was pleasantly surprised. Their sonic signature was not as apparent as it had been in V1,2,3,4 and the line stage. They did have a minor sonic affect on the phono stage output - seemed to warm it up a tad and give it more body without affecting it's linearity or clarity so much.
I'm in the early stages of playing with tube 'blending' in the phono stage and a long way from recommending this to others, but since V5 thru V8 are not nearly as demanding for really low noise tubes it has opened up a whole new area of exploration for me. Ergo my interest in the Tungsrams and some others as well.
Again, thanks a a lot for your comments.
FWIW I think I may have judged the EH's too harshly. I changed the cartridge in my TT and the difference was substantial. Not to say that they are my first choice, but clearly the cartridge (a Micro Benz Glider) is in need of service or a funeral. :-)
Friend ended up using Tungsram 6922 (1970's vintage) in his DAC after trying several brands/vintages. I believe he tried 1960's era Sylvania, 1980's Philips ECG, Amperex (Dutch), and Philips E88CC. I think that the Tungsram was the most neutral sounding in his unit. They exhibited good life and were quiet.
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