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I am awaiting a nice pair of GE 5 Star triple mica grey plate 5751 tubes with the "O" getters from 1959. My research indicates that the TMBL D-getter GE 5751's from a little earlier are possibly a little better sounding. Unfortunately, they are out of my price range at this time.
Has anyone had experience with both varieties that may be able to comment on their general sonic differences?
FWIW, I am currently running a pair of early-70's GE double mica 5751's in my Cayin TA-30 integrated. And, while some may consider these to be much lower on the food chain compared the earlier ones with the 3 micas and support rods, I have to say, they are sounding very sweet to me. Full bodied, controlled bass, smooth and articulate mids, good image specifity and clean, if slightly rolled of highs. In some ways, I prefer them to the best 12AX7's I've tried in this amp-Amperex BB's, early-60's Mullards and (my personal favorite 12AX7) Raytheon black plates.
Any opinions/observations are greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
Pat
Follow Ups:
n/t
I've spent lots of quality time with every 5751 type known to our species, or pretty close. I've been using them since way back when, in the linestage of a C-J PV-2A and the input stage of the C-J MV-75, and along the way and today, still occasionally in this little PV-2A preamp and the MV-75, and in the C-J Premier 11A, and C-J Premier 12s, which have been my frontline amps for several years.In the MV-75s, to my ears differences in the different tubes yield smaller differences than different tubes in the other mentioned gear. In the old PV-2A, it uses two 5751s in its linestage. Different tubes do make easily noticeable differences. As the input tube/s in the Premier 11A and Premier 12, changing any tube can easily make a more or less audible difference. There's more gain at this tube position than any other this amplifier.
Food chain? Humbug! Yes, from reading many opinions, a preference hierarchy can certainly emerge, along with lots of hype, too. There may even be some warrant sometimes to the heirarchy; maybe. In my experience, there is no tube that in every system always sounds better than another like type tube. A tube that sounds utterly fabulous in one system may well, and often doesn't, sound utterly fabulous in other. Change something, anything - a source component, speakers, amp, preamp, even cables, whatever - and the tube positions can be up for grabs again in search of great sonics. It's about synergy.
And, the "uber" tubes of myth and legend can be just as likely to be sonic heroes or goats as any other tube. I've never had a top result, for example, with the Telefunken ECC802S. Often, too, there are many tubes in a given system that can yield equally satisfying results. Different, sometimes, but otherwise equally enjoyable.
For all those many positive reviews of the C-J Premier 11A and 12 amplifiers, whether one aligns with the reviews or reviewers, the stock, OE 5751 C-J used in these amplifiers was the late-production GE JAN 5751. This is the tube folks reviewing this amplifier, and folks buying it, were listening to when listening with a stock tube complement. C-J used this tube pretty much for every 5751 position in their gear. But this tube is not an especially typically highly heralded tube.
After that bit of soap-boxing, in my current system (which I had been enjoying enormously until my frontline PV-12A preamp pooped out) the specific GE 5751 you mention - 3-mica, gray plate, O-getter, early-1960s vintage - is outstanding. I prefer this gray plate tube to any of the GE black plate variants (and there're several). Better than the vaunted triple-mica black and gray plate Sylvanias (and I tend to really like the gray plate tube). Better than the Siemens or the Raytheon windmill getter. The humble, late-production 2-mica, gray plate Sylvania is even sounding great, too. I've had reliably good results with this tube. Usually sounds good, if not great, and as was mentioned, is quiet and long-lasting.
Critically important, this GE 5751 is playing well with others. In the amp, the other tubes that are helping turn out this very enjoyable sonic result are long, gray plate Japanese-made (ITT-branded, but otherwise no manufacturer is evident) 6CG7s and Shuguang 6550Bs. In the preamp linestage, a C-J PV-12A, a number of different tubes are able to contribute to the really nice sonic results. Then, beyond this there're all the other bits of gear, even my room, even my ears. Change any of this (pretty much) and everything can change.
The only way to know how a tube works in your gear to your ears is to listen to it yourself. This is part of the fun, and sometimes the frustration, the boon and bane, of tubed audio gear ownership. Personally, for all the ups and downs, ins and outs, I wouldn't be without at least one piece of tubed gear in the critical audio path in any audio system.
Let us know how these GEs sound.
- SJ
Edits: 04/26/10 04/26/10
The grey plates tend to be more relaxed sounding and lend a better depth perspective, in my opinions...I need my depth in my soundstage imagery...
It amazes me how many folks gravitate toward the vintage black plates. I don't seem to favor black plate tubes; other than very vintage output tubes. Guitarists love shiny black plate and teeny weeny plate versions of signal tubes. They seem to strive for a big presence "out of the amp/speaker box." I understand that perspective. Interestingly, those same guitarists can be seen onstage miking their stage amps with a close-up Shure SM-57 mic !
The presence versus depth perspective is an ongoing opinion battle. Growing up working sound in theatres, I configure my setups as though the speakers set up the stage front, the proscenium arch. Thus, I strive for most of the sound to come from behind the speakers, which is where the musicians would be if I were seated in the first 10 rows. This psychoacoustic approach works for me...
When you have a bright &/or forward sounding preamp, the gray plates can help, immensely. I also like taller plates compared to shorter plates. Have you ever heard any tall plate 5751s ? They are rare but they can be found.
It all comes down to finding your favorite illusion of reality. By matching componentry and tube rolling, synergistic combos can be discovered; and enjoyed...
Good post tvr:
I totally agree that it is the interaction of any one tube with the rest of the tubes in the system and the circuit the tube is placed in that determines the "sound" of the given tube.
IMO the GE TMGP is a good tube--in the right system. It is definitely in the rich,full,smooth camp as far as 5751's go---and if that is something your system needs it will do well. My system generally needs more of a fast,dynamic,detail type input tube so I generally favour the GE TMBP (which I think is almost the polar opposite of the GE TMGP), the Raytheon Windmill or the Tung-sol 5751.
I also favour the Sylvania TMGP over the GE TMGP. They are in similar sound camps but I think the Sylvania is a little less smooth and rounded.When I use JJ KT77,or GEC KT66 (output tubes with very extended top ends) I prefer the Sylv. TMGP over even the Windmill as an input tube.
Isn't tube rolling fun?!
You didn't fix your preamp! Sorry if I have been incommunicado, but I had a crash and burn scenario on my old computer.
Stu
Hey, Stu! You have nothing at all whatsoever to apologize for. I'm so grateful to you for all the help you provided in troubleshooting the problem, and more, helping me understand the PV-12 circuit and some of the basics of tube audio.
At about the time those two pesky, critical resistor were located hiding between and under those large power supply caps, I ended up rather fully diverted with work, the holidays, house repairs, blah, blah, blah.... I may soon have some time to get back to putting arights the PV-12A, I've got a Dynaco FM-3 that needs some attention, some audio kits to finishing sourcing parts for and then building, and... Gotta find some focus... Maybe simplify... ??
Thanks a million for being there. I may be pinging you again when I get back into the PV-12.
- SJ
I collected virtually every variant of 5751 I could get (way too many). I used them in a couple of integrateds, a Jadis DA-60 in the 12AX7 positions and a Consonance M-100 plus as the "input" tube.
The triple Mica blackplate from virtually every manufacturer including GE 5 Star yielded a more taught bass than the grey plated versions. The grey plates in particular the GE-JAN but also GE TMGP however delivered prodigious, almost thunderous bass. This may be your preference and a good thing, I found it too loose and flabby at times to use full time.
There is one gray plate I liked a really pristine pair of Sylvania Gold Brand DM from the 60s. These too exhibited extra bass oomph but more controlled. I kept them in the Jadis for long stretches.
I would like to echo TVR's sentiment that tube satisfaction is highly dependent on the system's use of it. I own an ARC SP6B preamp with 6 12AX7s. The gain is ledgendarily very hot, I certainly found that to be the case.(using SS 400 WPC mono blocks was no help) So having a number of the lower Mu 5751s to try I rolled them in. The effect was negligble.Out they went.
Finally I also echo trying later 5751s for transparency and halographic imageing even current production in the right spot can be quite gratifying.
Although not an answer to your question check out the Raytheon 5751 the famous windmill getter type (If you can find or afford them) but the other Raytheons still give you a hint at how clean and full bodied the best of the 5751s.
I have 2 pair of 5751 5 stars, you will find then very clean, fast with good dynamics and base. They image well also, I also found the GE 5751 black plates just as good.They are very balanced where you could miss some of the 12AX7 tube magic. I have not found then bright at all in my system and they work great in my McIntosh C2300 line stage.
I have an extra pair of GE 5 stars, one is a 5751 and the other 5751 WA, they work well in my system.
PJB
Edits: 05/01/10
I used them in my CJ Premier 11a and they were very quiet. I never found any differences in swapping out 5751. They all sounded pretty much thye same. Very reliable tube and last long time. No complaints in the 9 years I used them.
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