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In Reply to: But Jack, you have to remeber that.... posted by Joe S on February 24, 2000 at 15:25:49:
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...I'm guessing that cost structure reflects their plan to send'em out strapped to the legs of B.A.T.s own fleet of highy trained carrier pidgeons. Why so costly? Well each pidgeon can only carry two tubes so thats 4 pidgeons per preamp right there. Factor in training, food, cages, hey it all adds up. But ya gotta remember "What matters is that no one gives away services".Yep a fair price for a service rendered & 4 new friends for life! What more could you ask for? ;-)
joe
Joe,Do you really believe that your attitude towards me and BAT from the day one is so subtle that people don't see it for what it is? Your severe intestinal dislike shows in any post of yours that has ANY association with those names. At least you should have been be a bit more smooth and elegant, and say something other than those snide silly things of yours, every once in a while - that would give your position a bit more credibility.
As I read other people's posts, I see real people, even those whome I disagree with, even Nigel and others that I argue with. With you it is nothing but completely shallow and blind hatred.
I can joke with Jack G, he sometimes laughs at my jokes too, he is human, and he had said good and reasonable things about me and my company when warranted, and critical too, I disagree with him more than I agree, but I do not see that shallow character in him. With you it is not even a one way street, it is an ambush.
I'd say that thank to people like you I am extremely strong in my desire to stay and succeed. Nothing provides me with a better stimulation.
So I had my sparks flying with Nagel, but boy, even during the darkest moments I still saw a man there. Not with you. So let's just call spade a spade and be done.
Sorry about the bit of over the top humor at your expense.And I'll be the first to admit I'm not the worlds biggest fan of your solid state products (but hey, I dont really like any solid state by and large anyway) but I bite my lip and generally keep my mouth shut about your gear. But what does that have to do with anything?
The issue is that it is insulting to me to be told by anyone that what they are doing isnt what they are doing. You cant have it both ways. If you make a profit on selling replacement tubes fine, so be it. Just have the balls to admit it instead of trying to act as though you arent in one breath and asserting its capitalism in the next when someone calls you on it.
The remainder of your comments I refuse to dignify with a response. i'd sugest you take a step back and cool off.
joe
It is notoriously difficult to build up a high end audio business, and to become so successful in such a short period of time makes BAT even more remarkable. Lamm Industries is another successful young company, so why don't people complain loudly about their $29,000 ML-2? If Joe and Jack G are so jealous of BAT, why don't they start their own successful high end company and sell tubes at a premium? Maybe they tried but failed miserably, hence their attitude. Afterall, Ferrari probably charges more than your local Hyundai shop for their services. So why don't all Hyundai dealers become Ferrari dealers? Just because Uncle Ned can sell the 6H30 at 30 bucks doesn't mean you can just plug these tubes into your VK50SE and forget about it. Do you know how many of Victor's 11,000 tubes will get rejected for poor spec? Maybe only one in ten will make the grade for the VK50SE, and this would make the $100 price tag a bargain.
Grow up my friend. I'm not jealous of anyone in this micro-market.---Do you know how many of Victor's 11,000 tubes will get rejected for poor spec? ---
I dont know. Victor has had every opportunity in the world to tell us here but he hasn't. In a vacuum of info on what drives his cost structure for this specific tube I'd guess it might be about the same as for his power tubes which he has told us about:
"We have not rejected any tubes for failing to meet this specs, however - all our rejects are for low emission (about .1% - .2% over several years)."
Maybe Victor will tell us?
joe
***Maybe Victor will tell us?Generally, we are very open about many pieces of internal information. On this one I have not formed my decision yet. Plus we are still accumulating the experience with four different models in production using it.
However, the problem with you, Joe, is that you started accusing me of price gouging without having the SLIGTEST CLUE about the situation - and that is nothing but plain and simple smear.
Your position was that of a spoiled child - you wanted something and believed someone was supposed to make it available to you at the price that YOU would dictate for no other reason that it would make YOU comfortable.
As I stated in a post today, you really put your foot in your mouth by trumpeting that $30 price from someone else. Again, you simply have no clue about what you are talking about but jumped at this chance of getting even with me. In such case a prudent person would ask a question first, you just went on one of your usual snide and nasty stupid humor ridicules - see your rather pathetic post about pigeons.
I sincerely hope you are doing better for that company where you are oh, well, attention please, a VP of marketing with a big M.
I do not appreciate smear and implications of lack of integrity on my part from someone lazy enough to do his home work.
As I said, your lack of knowledge got you in that dung, plus your arrogance.
You're right Victor. I didnt know you had cornered the world supply of a single version of the tube so that you could set the price at any level you choose without competition. But I suspected that had to be the case based on your prior posts and I'm glad to see you have now acknowledged it rather than trying to justify it with cost, etc.So who didnt do his homework? Based on this thread, at least everyone now knows the truth.
joe
Take it to email. Enough is enough.Joe, I know you know the answer to the question. It's called value pricing. You charge what the market will bear in the absence of competitive forces.
Victor, I can't ask you to reveal BAT's business and cost structure on a public forum, but without data, defending it is going nowhere.
Both of you are getting to close to spiraling into personal attacks.
Not to belabor the point, but let me back into the cost/price thing. Assuming that BAT sells the tubes through their dealers, the dealer cost would be $55-60. Typical markups would put BAT's cost in the $25-30 range.
Let's say for round numbers that their cost is really $10, an investment of around $1M. Replacement tubes won't be required for 3-5 years so you have to add storage and cost of money to the equation. Real cost in 5 years might be up to $15. Based on real costs, perhaps a retail in the $60-75 range represents a reasonable markup. But there is no other source.
But what if you have to hold these for 10 years or more? Costs rise. What price would you pick Joe?
I don't mean to invite more discussion on this issue. Victor isn't going to post their cost structure so we're back to circular agruments. Let's leave it at that and let the market decide whether it's price gouging or value pricing.
All those noises from downstairs...
I don't see why he should. No other manufacturer broadcasts his cost of doing business over a public forum.
Joe, as I mentioned before, I can be VERY open and friendly with people who are warm and at least a bit friendly towards me. It is not your dislike of some products that created that tension, and I don't think you should try to hide behind it. It is simply that in every post of yours there was an obvious drop of venom. And don't call me too sensitive - I have experienced far worse criticism from others, but yours has that special flavor that I refuse to accept. Perhaps it was your attempt at sounding objective.Anyway, I am actually quite bad at long protracted unpleasantnesses (boy, what a word, I am not sure I got it wright), and I do not expect to continue this one much longer. Your attitude towards me does bother me, but not nearly enough to create any long lasting hostility. If you want to be more reasonable and objective, then I am with you and perhaps some day we could discuss things like two normal human beings. If not, then at least I put it all on the table and got it off my chest.
Good luck.
If you feel like saying something on these issues, I think the e-mail would be a better place.
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