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In Reply to: VICTOR KHOMENKO:BEST 6SN7 TO REPLACE THE SOVTEKS IN THE VK-60 posted by Felix on February 23, 2000 at 07:57:20:
While I would certainly use a word "change" in place of "ameliorate", there are couple of things to consider. We all have different references, and one of my fovorite is Stevie's guitar. I usually like the tubes that make it sound like Stevie's guitar. To me that is Sovtek tubes. I have not found another yet that I liked better.Be it as it may, it is your unit, and you certainly can change the front tube to whatever you like. You don't need my guidance on this, just try them and pick the one you like. Stay away from the second stage, however. Many NOS's will simply die there with bad results, only few will hold the voltages. Sovteks don't have this problem.
Should I even mention you can try the Svetlana or ECC33 output tubes? I suspect you can't get them, so consider that soft teasing.
I don't know how Sovteks can sound good in ANY hi-fi amp.Then again,
here is another perfect case of a company pushing a product(Sovteks)
simply because he wants to sell them to a customer.The real reason why manufacturers recommend Sovteks is because they are
readily available and are real cheap for the manufacturers to get(marking them up dramatically).If you buy Sovteks from BAT(or any other hi-end manufacturer
for that matter)they will charge you twice as much as you can buy them from
most tube places here on the net.
***I don't know how Sovteks can sound good in ANY hi-fi amp.Quite so. You don't know, indeed.
***Then again,
here is another perfect case of a company pushing a product(Sovteks)
simply because he wants to sell them to a customer.You must be in the state of delusional confusion. We are not in business of selling tubes.
***The real reason why manufacturers recommend Sovteks is because they are
readily availableNot a bad reason to start, don't you think so?
***and are real cheap for the manufacturers to get(marking them up dramatically).Confused again. We do not mark them up. We are not in business of selling tubes. When we sell tubes as spare parts, we charge our expenses. Many places ARE in tube selling business, please feel free to buy from them.
***If you buy Sovteks from BAT(or any other hi-end manufacturer
for that matter)they will charge you twice as much as you can buy them from
most tube places here on the net.The beauty of this market is that you DON'T have to buy tubes from high-end manufacturer. I would be happy to supply you with the list of tube vendors. However, it sounds like you would like the high end manufacturer to privide you with free service of procurement, testing, sorting and shipping tubes to you at no change? I can assure you that this is not going to happen soon.
Who's next on your target list? Mercedes Benz dealer? How dare they marking up their cars! I want that 600 at cost too.
don't you manufacture products using the 6H30 tube?? and don't you have all the stock of this tube?? Can you buy this replacement tube anywhere else?? Have you stated in previous posts that you would sell this tube to non-BAT owners to try out themselves (I'm pretty sure I remember you posting this months back, I may be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time)??.. in that case you are in the business of selling tubes, not just in selling amplifiers, etc.please don't take this as an attack... that is not how I want it to be perceived... i greatly respect your opinions and appreciate all the things you have written on this forum.... I enjoy your posts and many have been a learning experience for me.... I'm just nitpicky and thought a correction was in order....
Shane
***don't you manufacture products using the 6H30 tube??Yes.
***and don't you have all the stock of this tube??No.
***Can you buy this replacement tube anywhere else??
Yes.
***and don't you have all the stock of this tube??No.
< < <
You did buy aprox 11,ooo of them you may not have an absolute monopoly, but it looks like a pactical one.
you are also selling them for $100 each> > > ***Can you buy this replacement tube anywhere else??
Yes.
< < <
nothing like a specific answer.
where in the US can people buy them, and for how much?
Jack
...."We do not mark them up"That extra $70.05 per tube just covers shipping & handling. ;-)
joe
***That extra $70.05 per tube just covers shipping & handling. ;-)So you still can't get over it? Get used to it. Part of that goes to cover Business 101 for people like you.
It is nice to know that you have a good friend on a ready... with a bottle of hamlock.
..you see I AM one of those Marketing VPs you referred to. It just looks pretty clear to me that you are using retubing as a profit center. Not that there is anything at all wrong with that. In my industry service and support are profit centers as well. Its the intellectual dishonesty of trying to defend it as just covering your costs when another supplier sells the same replacement item for 30% of your price taht I find a bit offputting. If this relects your real cost structure for this item (and I dont mean after the allocation of overhead of all business operations) you've got problems - and it's not with people like me...
joe
***Its the intellectual dishonesty of trying to defend it as just covering your costs when another supplier sells the same replacement item for 30% of your price taht I find a bit offputting.There is some miformation to which you *obviously* don't have access, that is vital to that story. I wish you had your facts straight before attacking someone's integrity, but you don't. The way it is now, you are just doing everyone plus yourself one big disfavor.
I guess, if you are interested in that subject, you will have to do your own homework.
....Victor? Is this thing hand picked? Do only 1 out of 100 survive the selection process? Do they come to you with a 50% DOA rate? Have you cornered the world market on the single most desireable version / vintage? If you have info that makes the case why not share it? If I've somehow wronged you I'll be the first to apologize. But when you're response to the challenge is evasiveness and attacks what am I to do?joe
***....Victor? Is this thing hand picked?No.
***Do only 1 out of 100 survive the selection process?
No. It is over 99%. Field replacement rate is also super low. Well, one single customer claimed to have TWO defective ones in one unit, so we shipped the replacements ASAP. You would recognize that customer's name immediately, though.
***Do they come to you with a 50% DOA rate?No. They are as close to 100% as it gets. We do, however, reject small number because of noise. No hard failures yet at all.
***Have you cornered the world market on the single most desireable version / vintage?Yes. It is called the DR version - specifically approved for space application with lifwe time rated at twice that of the best 6922's. The EV version was produced in small volumes before and this is what is being produced now. Difference? Perhaps the BMW 318i vs. 850.
I suspect some people might be able to come up with small lots of the DR version too - some used to be available on the local spot market - these would be stollen from the factory stock. It seems they are all gone by now with several people trying hard to find them.
***If you have info that makes the case why not share it?Joe, show me another manufacturer as open as we have been. Try to pry some internal info from others and you will see the difference.
***If I've somehow wronged you I'll be the first to apologize. But when you're response to the challenge is evasiveness and attacks what am I to do?
Water under the bridge. But your entry into this thread was nothing like asking questions - see the pigeons stuff.
Yeah OK, so the pigeons were an over the top attempt at humor. I knew as soon as I hit the key it was probably a mistake. But I do appreciate the honesty on the monopoly on the most desireable version issue. I suppose this went the way it did because I knew that was exactly why the price is what it is - I just bristled at your refusal to admit it and the attempt to use cost as the justification when I knew that could not possibly be the case.I for one regard the issue as closed and wish to make it clear I wish you no ill will.
joe
.
Regretfully, tempers flare up sometimes. Hopefuly, no big harm is done to anyone inlcuding the spectators.Rod, where is your mop? Separate broken teeth from bloody stains.
I don't know where to start, maybe just turn on the firehose and archive the whole thing.
For myself, and possibly others like me, this issue could be either a Right vs Wrong debate, or a Is-The-Glass-Half-Empty-Or-Half-Full miscommunication, but I personally don't know enough to gravitate one direction or the other. I do know that there is a huge swirling vortex of negative feelings associated with this thread, and I wish there were some way to turn it into something constructive with both parties' input. Soon some folks won't care how the Glass is described, because they won't be thirsty any more...
..you see I AM one of those Marketing VPs you referred to. It just looks pretty clear to me that you are using retubing as a profit center. Not that there is anything at all wrong with that. In my industry service and support are profit centers as well. Its the intellectual dishonesty of trying to defend it as just covering your costs when another supplier sells the same replacement item for 30% of your price taht I find a bit offputting.Joe, I do not believe you are qualified to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty.
***If this relects your real cost structure for this item (and I dont mean after the allocation of overhead of all business operations) you've got problems - and it's not with people like me...Joe, I know you wish that with all your heart. I do not recall hiring you as a consultant and can assure you we do not need your help. We shall manage our problems the best we can. You have never left your patronizing attitude, presuming, I suspect, that we all should get up at the sound of that VP title. Well, I am a P. So what? You seem to be so in love with the sound of your title, you keep mentioning it as your ultimate qualification. Sorry, not impressed.
I couldnt help but tweak you on the VP issue after your post to Jack G earlier in the thread. And oh yes, in my postings here since the inception of the board I'm notorious for milking my job title for all its worth (hmm, in case you miss the irony in my tone its the first time I've ever mentioned it)But tell me. Why do you evade the real issue and engage in personal attacks? Are you seriously trying to tell me and genuinely expect me to believe that a tube you sell for $100 is only covering your costs? When the (apparently) only other source of the tube can somehow afford to sell the same tube for $30? After you have announced on this very board in the past you did everything you could to corner the world supply of said tube? These are your words and actions Victor, not mine. Do you want me to go dig up the posts? They are there in the archive for anyone to see. So why not try to step outside your skin for a moment and see how it might look to others?
I repeat - I have no real problem with you running a business. Why the hell not just be forthright about it instead of asserting things that require a total suspension of disbelief in any thinking individual?
I must say I find it very interesting that in your last two posts you have not denied using the replacement tube business as a profit center. If you missed it that was the object of the post you responded to in the first place. Instead of personal attactks who not simply address that issue?
joe
***I couldnt help but tweak you on the VP issue after your post to Jack G earlier in the thread. And oh yes, in my postings here since the inception of the board I'm notorious for milking my job title for all its worth (hmm, in case you miss the irony in my tone its the first time I've ever mentioned it)Not true. How do you suppose I knew it if not for your flaunting it? It was first used by you to impress the living crap out of me. Boy, were you flying high with your patronage... You know what? You damn nearly succeded. I do nderstand, though, your not wanting to recall that.
***But tell me. Why do you evade the real issue and engage in personal attacks?
I do not see any issue here, I have seen plenty of unfriendly attacks.
***Are you seriously trying to tell me and genuinely expect me to believe that a tube you sell for $100 is only covering your costs?
Joe, as I mentioned to you before, I really don't have any need to justify anything to you. I don't want you to believe anything. It is YOU who insist on your God given right to demand explanation from people who own you none. I do what I believe in my heart is right and frankly, you don't have any right of passage to judge me. You have not done anything yet to earn my trust, and to me that is important. Contrary, in fact. So for you to complain that I have been less than completely forthcoming with YOU is a bit of, ah, there it is, "intellectual dishonesty". I am inclined to be open with people I trust and respect. I have demonstrated this time and again.
***When the (apparently) only other source of the tube can somehow afford to sell the same tube for $30?For as long as you continue your idle speculation, you shall remain answerless. You are not asking questions, you are making accusatory statements, loaded statements if you will, so please continue your lonely play alone.
***After you have announced on this very board in the past you did everything you could to corner the world supply of said tube?
I don't see any connection between this and preceeding paragraph.
***These are your words and actions Victor, not mine. Do you want me to go dig up the posts? They are there in the archive for anyone to see. So why not try to step outside your skin for a moment and see how it might look to others?
You just can't get off that judge soap box, can you? That is a problem with you, Joe. You seem to believe that you have right to judge others even in the situations about which you have no knowledge besides your general education. Sorry, but you have not demonstrated ANY familiarity with the subject yet. You have make plenty of arbitrary decisions, though. And I am not going to follow you there. Frankly, you have not demonstrated that you have the slightest idea about the costs of different products, yet you had passed many judgements. Yur best analysis was confined to the "it is just a small tube, after all" revelation. Well, dah, diamond is just a small stone.
***I repeat - I have no real problem with you running a business.
As your numerous posts indicate, you do. You also seem to have severe problem with others liking something that comes with my name attached to it. You, of course, make sure that is covered with that phony "objectivity" artificial sweet. And don't take me wrong - your irritant qualities are not all that significant for me to lose too much sleep over it. I have been very frank, sometimes too frank, with many people I don't even know, so don't try to assign this "secretive" nature to me. It is simply that you have been trying to muscle your way into something where people simply get by being good and nice and human. Sorry, no right of passage for you yet.
***Why the hell not just be forthright about it instead of asserting things that require a total suspension of disbelief in any thinking individual?
It is you, Joe, and your continuous snide unpleasantness. If you want to be liked and respected, earn it.
***I must say I find it very interesting that in your last two posts you have not denied using the replacement tube business as a profit center.
Don't be ridiculous, you know nothing about our business so please spare us your generalist analysis. Please stay with what you know.
***If you missed it that was the object of the post you responded to in the first place. Instead of personal attactks who not simply address that issue?
What is the issue, Joe? The fact that you don't like our prices? Get over it. Our prices are fair. You have my permission to go and sell anything at any price that you wish to name. No P patronizing a VP here.
---You have not done anything yet to earn my trust, and to me that is important. ---You've got it the wrong way round Victor. You are the seller & I'm the potential customer - you've got to earn my trust or I wont buy you're product.
***Are you seriously trying to tell me and genuinely expect me to believe that a tube you sell for $100 is only covering your costs?
***After you have announced on this very board in the past you did everything you could to corner the world supply of said tube?---I don't see any connection between this and preceeding paragraph.---
Sigh. If you really see a connection between this I cant help you Victor. I can say the words but I can't understand it for you.
---What is the issue, Joe? The fact that you don't like our prices? Get over it. Our prices are fair. You have my permission to go and sell anything at any price that you wish to name. No P patronizing a VP here.---
Great. Why didnt you say it in the first place instead of trying to hide behind costs and other specious arguments? There is nothing wrong with value pricing something thats worth it. Trying to justify it with the tissue thin inanities you have been using is insulting to your potential customers. Do you finally get it?
joe
I think this is enough for public forum. E-mail me if you have any desire.
.
...I'm guessing that cost structure reflects their plan to send'em out strapped to the legs of B.A.T.s own fleet of highy trained carrier pidgeons. Why so costly? Well each pidgeon can only carry two tubes so thats 4 pidgeons per preamp right there. Factor in training, food, cages, hey it all adds up. But ya gotta remember "What matters is that no one gives away services".Yep a fair price for a service rendered & 4 new friends for life! What more could you ask for? ;-)
joe
Joe,Do you really believe that your attitude towards me and BAT from the day one is so subtle that people don't see it for what it is? Your severe intestinal dislike shows in any post of yours that has ANY association with those names. At least you should have been be a bit more smooth and elegant, and say something other than those snide silly things of yours, every once in a while - that would give your position a bit more credibility.
As I read other people's posts, I see real people, even those whome I disagree with, even Nigel and others that I argue with. With you it is nothing but completely shallow and blind hatred.
I can joke with Jack G, he sometimes laughs at my jokes too, he is human, and he had said good and reasonable things about me and my company when warranted, and critical too, I disagree with him more than I agree, but I do not see that shallow character in him. With you it is not even a one way street, it is an ambush.
I'd say that thank to people like you I am extremely strong in my desire to stay and succeed. Nothing provides me with a better stimulation.
So I had my sparks flying with Nagel, but boy, even during the darkest moments I still saw a man there. Not with you. So let's just call spade a spade and be done.
Sorry about the bit of over the top humor at your expense.And I'll be the first to admit I'm not the worlds biggest fan of your solid state products (but hey, I dont really like any solid state by and large anyway) but I bite my lip and generally keep my mouth shut about your gear. But what does that have to do with anything?
The issue is that it is insulting to me to be told by anyone that what they are doing isnt what they are doing. You cant have it both ways. If you make a profit on selling replacement tubes fine, so be it. Just have the balls to admit it instead of trying to act as though you arent in one breath and asserting its capitalism in the next when someone calls you on it.
The remainder of your comments I refuse to dignify with a response. i'd sugest you take a step back and cool off.
joe
It is notoriously difficult to build up a high end audio business, and to become so successful in such a short period of time makes BAT even more remarkable. Lamm Industries is another successful young company, so why don't people complain loudly about their $29,000 ML-2? If Joe and Jack G are so jealous of BAT, why don't they start their own successful high end company and sell tubes at a premium? Maybe they tried but failed miserably, hence their attitude. Afterall, Ferrari probably charges more than your local Hyundai shop for their services. So why don't all Hyundai dealers become Ferrari dealers? Just because Uncle Ned can sell the 6H30 at 30 bucks doesn't mean you can just plug these tubes into your VK50SE and forget about it. Do you know how many of Victor's 11,000 tubes will get rejected for poor spec? Maybe only one in ten will make the grade for the VK50SE, and this would make the $100 price tag a bargain.
Grow up my friend. I'm not jealous of anyone in this micro-market.---Do you know how many of Victor's 11,000 tubes will get rejected for poor spec? ---
I dont know. Victor has had every opportunity in the world to tell us here but he hasn't. In a vacuum of info on what drives his cost structure for this specific tube I'd guess it might be about the same as for his power tubes which he has told us about:
"We have not rejected any tubes for failing to meet this specs, however - all our rejects are for low emission (about .1% - .2% over several years)."
Maybe Victor will tell us?
joe
***Maybe Victor will tell us?Generally, we are very open about many pieces of internal information. On this one I have not formed my decision yet. Plus we are still accumulating the experience with four different models in production using it.
However, the problem with you, Joe, is that you started accusing me of price gouging without having the SLIGTEST CLUE about the situation - and that is nothing but plain and simple smear.
Your position was that of a spoiled child - you wanted something and believed someone was supposed to make it available to you at the price that YOU would dictate for no other reason that it would make YOU comfortable.
As I stated in a post today, you really put your foot in your mouth by trumpeting that $30 price from someone else. Again, you simply have no clue about what you are talking about but jumped at this chance of getting even with me. In such case a prudent person would ask a question first, you just went on one of your usual snide and nasty stupid humor ridicules - see your rather pathetic post about pigeons.
I sincerely hope you are doing better for that company where you are oh, well, attention please, a VP of marketing with a big M.
I do not appreciate smear and implications of lack of integrity on my part from someone lazy enough to do his home work.
As I said, your lack of knowledge got you in that dung, plus your arrogance.
You're right Victor. I didnt know you had cornered the world supply of a single version of the tube so that you could set the price at any level you choose without competition. But I suspected that had to be the case based on your prior posts and I'm glad to see you have now acknowledged it rather than trying to justify it with cost, etc.So who didnt do his homework? Based on this thread, at least everyone now knows the truth.
joe
Take it to email. Enough is enough.Joe, I know you know the answer to the question. It's called value pricing. You charge what the market will bear in the absence of competitive forces.
Victor, I can't ask you to reveal BAT's business and cost structure on a public forum, but without data, defending it is going nowhere.
Both of you are getting to close to spiraling into personal attacks.
Not to belabor the point, but let me back into the cost/price thing. Assuming that BAT sells the tubes through their dealers, the dealer cost would be $55-60. Typical markups would put BAT's cost in the $25-30 range.
Let's say for round numbers that their cost is really $10, an investment of around $1M. Replacement tubes won't be required for 3-5 years so you have to add storage and cost of money to the equation. Real cost in 5 years might be up to $15. Based on real costs, perhaps a retail in the $60-75 range represents a reasonable markup. But there is no other source.
But what if you have to hold these for 10 years or more? Costs rise. What price would you pick Joe?
I don't mean to invite more discussion on this issue. Victor isn't going to post their cost structure so we're back to circular agruments. Let's leave it at that and let the market decide whether it's price gouging or value pricing.
All those noises from downstairs...
I don't see why he should. No other manufacturer broadcasts his cost of doing business over a public forum.
Joe, as I mentioned before, I can be VERY open and friendly with people who are warm and at least a bit friendly towards me. It is not your dislike of some products that created that tension, and I don't think you should try to hide behind it. It is simply that in every post of yours there was an obvious drop of venom. And don't call me too sensitive - I have experienced far worse criticism from others, but yours has that special flavor that I refuse to accept. Perhaps it was your attempt at sounding objective.Anyway, I am actually quite bad at long protracted unpleasantnesses (boy, what a word, I am not sure I got it wright), and I do not expect to continue this one much longer. Your attitude towards me does bother me, but not nearly enough to create any long lasting hostility. If you want to be more reasonable and objective, then I am with you and perhaps some day we could discuss things like two normal human beings. If not, then at least I put it all on the table and got it off my chest.
Good luck.
If you feel like saying something on these issues, I think the e-mail would be a better place.
***You did buy aprox 11,oooThat number is *extremely* approximate. We shall leave it at that. We also got the best, the highest grade in existance.
However, there are many, many of these inside the Doomsday machine. And some day it will be replaced with solid state model... so stay tuned...
***of them you may not have an absolute monopoly, but it looks like a pactical one.
you are also selling them for $100 eachWe make them available for that price, yes. *Selling* means mush more than just answering few unsolicited requests, as I am sure some super-smart VP of marketing will gladly confirm. So I don't see anythng like selling going on here. Not that I would see anything wrong with that. We probably could just have sold it all in few month and make some money. But that is not our business. We sell equipment. We have also sold nuts, bolts, rubber feet, resistors, etc, but we are not in business of selling nuts and bolts.
But really, all this is far less than unimportant.
> > > ***Can you buy this replacement tube anywhere else??
***Yes.
< < <
***nothing like a specific answer.
***where in the US can people buy them, and for how much?I shall respectfully withold the specific answer until some future date, if you don't mind.
But really, say we do, say we don't - all this doesn't matter one single bin. What matters is that no one gives away services. You want something done for you - pay for it. Unless I suddenly wake up back in the USSR, where some get stuff for nothing, others can't get damn thing with their wooden money.
There is no secret that many other parties have tried and are still trying to get some supply of that tube. I don't blame them.
> where in the US can people buy them, and for how much?http://store1.lycos.com/triodeelectronics/new.html $29.95 each.
Only have two on hand at the moment, but more on the way.
Doesn't the preamp take 8 of them? If so, 2 wont do alot of good.
Jack
> Doesn't the preamp take 8 of them? If so, 2 wont do alot of good.Hey, just hang on a few days and we'll have all you want.
I only got a few for starters, wanted to make sure they were
what they were supposed to be (they are).IMA, DON'T go plugging these in place of 6DJ8/6922 unless
you know doggone well what you are doing. These tubes draw
a lot more filament current and the Gm & amplification factor
(thus the biasing or bias resistor) is different.
The few I've sold went to experimenter types like
Steve Bench , who
build their own stuff.
EV or DR? What year of production? Let me know if you need a hint on the year to stay away from. And keep digging, they ARE out there.
> EV or DR? What year of production? Let me know if you need a hint on the > year to stay away from. And keep digging, they ARE out there.The ones Sovtek is shipping say "Sovtek 9911". I doubt they're
brand new tubes, I'm quite aware there's lots of Russian mil surp
floating around, eg: like these Svetlana 5U4-G's I have with
1981 date codes.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!:-)
I should have known.:-)
Let me know when you get some Sigle plate RCA 2A3s in.:-)
Jack
Finally a competive thread that will help people save money and learn more about business honesty. This sight has so many 'personalites' it is very confusing. It's part advertising: Upscale Audio, BAT, Ultimate Audio, etc.. Part- I'm smarter than you are, snob crap. Part- battlefield for anal audiophiles. Very little truth sees light of day, especially from business owners who use this sight continualy whenever it will help their business. The worst part is the moderators let this stuff degrade the purpose of this sight.
Was aopparentl;y afew days ago. It shows.
things at this site ebb and flow as well-the parts constantly shift.
> > > . The worst part is the moderators let this stuff degrade the purpose of this sight. < < <
All of the above in your list are part of this. different people benefit from different aspects. Its way too easy for moderators to slash and burn. A light touch is the key.
Jack
I think advertising is way over the top here. Most tube/audio industry types have 'class' and stay away from this sight. Let us do their advertising for them if their product/service warrants it. We should call this sight "Victor's PR Forum". My God!! I can't believe it.
I think you are missing a key point. Exclusivity and favortism, or more precisely, the absence thereof.All manufacturers are given the same opportunity. Those that choose to post here are welcomed by many people, who gain info they may not get otherwise, and who (because they already have established systems, differences in tastes, or insufficients funds)are not likely to purchase the product in question, whether or not the manufacturer posts at this site.
It seems the moderators weed out blatant sales pitches from people interested only in collecting dollars rather than sharing experience.
I wish more industry people would post and share what they know. Some may view the ethics issue the same way you do. Others truly want to contribute what they have learned, but won't comment because they don't want to be branded as someone looking out only for their own interest, even though they know they would be forthright and honest in all they say. I know this because a number of people I respect choose to take that tact. I view the absence of additional experienced people as a potential loss; I do not view the contribution of 'resident manufacturers' as a threat or indignation.
It comes and goes. Victor has been getting alot of attention the last few days, but be aware its not all flattering. it will go away in a few days.
Jack
.
Advertising is over the top here? Have you been to other sites, the ones with the Las Vegas neon signs everywhere?Come on CJ, if this were 'Victor's PR Forum', just why aren't the moderators deleting the dissenters?
Sorry, but I don't see any self promotion going on here though Uncle Ned did sneak in a little ad ;)
Why aren't the moderators deleting advetising? It's more subtle than the banners we see on other sights. Trust me, they are using this sight to promote and they know it.
Blantant ads are deleted. Maybe a few get missed. Sure, anyone would have to be awfully naive not to think that some companies get some decent PR from activity at this site and others. There's a big difference between PR and advertising.But as long as these folks are providing useful information, advice and stimulating discussion, why would you exclude them? Who would you rather ask about Parasound? John Curl or just another internet persona?
Do you want real expertise or just more idle chatter?
Point me in the direction of self serving posts or ads that haven't been pegged as such. I don't think you're going to find too many slipping thru the cracks.
the manufacturer should not be an option if you have questions about how something sounds. Many (in my experience) privately feel that there equipment is the best and everything else is second rate. Such folks can't provide unbiased opinions.
Agreed. I meant in terms of a technical thing like upgrading caps or something. As far as sound, if the manufacturer didn't think it was the best there is, it'd only be because he likes his more expensive model better, no?
Good PR gets you as many sales, in the long run, as advertising. A bunch of subtle ads equal one big one. I just did not realize it was so predominant here at this sight. These guys know exactly what they are doing. They do give expertise, but it is pedjudiced by there vested interest. Most people in the industry do not come here as a matter of integrity and ethics. When I say such and such a product was not that great, and a seller of that product responds to the contrary, is that expertise or conflict of interest. Ask them why they come here, after they've had a few. You made some good points. I just wish they would be more forthright, or go away and let us take care of their PR.
Agreed, in fact good PR can be far more effective than ads.One point, when you talk about sellers, do you mean dealers or manufacturers? There's a big difference. Manufacturers rarely ever do what you're suggesting unless it's a case of clarifying or correcting a strickly technical issue. Resellers are tough. Sure, some might try to do what you're suggesting, but those get found out fairly quickly. Quite frankly, I don't see the benefit to them unless they are expressing their honest opinion. My point being that a decent dealer has a cart load of product. If you don't like X, why agrue? It's a lot easier to sell you Y if that's what you want.
Anyway, it's a tough choice and there's no good solution. For the most part, I think industry folks behave well and offer as much as they gain. They are asked to indentify themselves as such so that us regular 'Joes' can take their input for what it's worth.
> Good PR gets you as many sales, in the long run, as advertising. A bunch of subtle ads equal one big one.I just did not realize it was so predominant here at this sight. These guys know exactly what they are
doing. They do give expertise, but it is pedjudiced by there vested interest.Good lord.Based on my shaving and beer drinking habits, I hardly
qualify as an obsessive-complusive or anal retentive, but
your spelling sucks.Unlike some audio publications, people who post here are required
to identify themselves if they are associated with a company selling
tubes or amplifiers. I am, and you can take that into consideration
when deciding the validity of what I post.> Most people in the industry do not come here as a matter of integrity and ethics.
AAMOF, a lot of them do lurk, and occasionally post.
When I say such and such a product was not that great, and a seller of that product responds to the contrary, is that expertise or conflict of interest.
I assume you have a job. Let's say you work for MCI, a bus
manufacturer, and we were on a BBS discussing
buses, and someone posted something referring to MCI buses
vs. Prevost or Eagle buses.
Would it be out of line for you to interject with a comment?
No, it wouldn't, and everyone on the bus BBS would be happy
to read what you have to say, tho they would *take into consideration*
who you work for.
First of all, it's 'SITE' - NOT 'SIGHT' - I guess the classy types really do stay away with this standard of spelling.
I'm sure I echo the feelings of many others that one of the most interesting aspects of this board IS the participation of people like Victor, Kevin, Uncle Ned, etc.. who have a vast depth of experience and expertise - we are all richer due to their participation. I have yet to see Victor do any advertising on this site, and actually, he is smart enough to know that this would be one of the worst places to advetise his products.
I hope this thread, which is really pointless and trivial, does not discourage people like Victor from sharing his thoughts.
Maybe most of you are so used to it that you do not see it for what it really is. They have a vested interest and they are blatantly using this sight(thanks for correcting my spelling) to promote, promote and promote their products and services. They have no business here, on second thought maybe their 'business' is here. I think the moderators should boot them. As I said before no business owner with integrity would be here promoting his/her products and or services.
...and even though I don't think I have commited any major offenses (and pardon me some minor, perhaps), it is right to be mindful of the sensitivities.
NT
We are coming from two different sides Victor.I'm on the consumer side and you are on the manufacturer side.I'm just sick and tired of seeing people get burned by the hi-end hype that you gotta spend more money to get better sound.I still don't agree w/you that Sovtek tubes sound good for hi-end audio applications.Hey......we might just have different tastes.Sovteks sound hard,sterile,2 dimensional and grainy to my ears.If that's the sound you like,then so be it.
Sovteks are readily available and I agree with you that's a good place to start.For this reason I can see why you supply your components stock with them.Generally I've found that the performance of a piece of tube gear almost ALWAYS improves after taking the stock Sovtek tubes out and replacing them with something else other than Sovteks.
You are in the buisness of selling components AS WELL AS selling tubes.Otherwise you wouldn't offer to sell tubes to customers.Then again,
buying replacement tubes from a manufacturer or dealer isn't any different than buying parts for a car from the dealer or manufacturer......they are almost ALWAYS much more expensive!
--- I still don't agree w/you that Sovtek tubes sound good for hi-end audio applications.Hey......we might just have different tastes.Sovteks sound hard,sterile,2 dimensional and grainy to my ears.If that's the sound you like,then so be it. ---While its just another persons opinion I have to gree with you here. I'd be genuiinely surprised if the performance of the Sovtek 6922 couldn't be beaten in virtually any component that uses it by a carefully chosen NOS tube . Thats the rub though. Many wont go throught the permutations of trying several NOS alternatives to find the best match...
Joe
Yup, most folks won't be bothered. From manufacturer's viewpoint, you have to use something in production that's reliable if you plan to sell product in large volume. The Sovteks fit the bill in that regard and are decent, perhaps arguably more accurate, but still not my favorite.
FWIW, that also goes for most of their 12AX7s, 5AR4s,5V4Gs(really a rebranded 5Y3). Just another person's opinion.
jack
Why don't you just stop talking now?
You know what -- as much as I did not like your unnecessarily confrontational tone with Victor, my post was no better. My apologies.
I was just voicing an opinion.Not everyone has to agree w/me!
As always,you gotta call things as you see them.
You can improve the sound (at your own risk) by tuning and rebiasing the unit. You will violate the warranty, but the result is very noticeable. If interested, give us a call.
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