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In Reply to: RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment? posted by vinnie2 on July 07, 2017 at 13:15:10
Ok. I thought I would summarize what I think I have heard and maybe learned in my experiments before I go on to something else.
My results tend to make me agree with what I have read in multiple internet articles that amplifiers of good construction played within their non-distorting limits will sound very similar. As there are always caveats with statements like this, I will get mine out of the way now.
1.This assumes that the amps are played at reasonable listening levels.
2. I do not doubt that some differences might be heard with careful listening between amps with high quality opts vs average opts. I think however a person would have to weigh other factors like loss of hearing due to age, etc. against whether the extra cost would be worth it for them. You can get a lot of bang for the buck with some of the lower cost opts. Being a senior citizen, I am sure my hearing has suffered some loss. However, there is a great deal of music that is below 12k hz, and I can not justify the considerable expense of high end opts.
3. All this applies to tube amplifiers (pp & se) only as I did not have an SS amp to compare with the tube amps. I intend to try that when I can get my hands on a decent one.
4. Since seeing is believing, I invite any and all who think I am full of beans (or worse) to try it for themselves. If you have two amps it is very easy to hook them up so you can switch between them with just the push of a button. Get one of the inexpensive switches from the attached link (or elsewhere), hook the amps up to the inputs, hook your speakers to the outputs, and put some 8 ohm or higher (25 ohms say) resistors across the speaker output terminals on the amps to protect them when switching, connect the input leads from your source to the switch box, adjust the volume controls of both amps until the volume is exactly the same on both, and you are good to go.
If anyone tries this please do post your results on the tubes(diy) forum as inquiring minds want to know.
Edits: 07/10/17 07/10/17 07/10/17 07/10/17 07/10/17 07/10/17 07/10/17 07/10/17Follow Ups:
"amplifiers of good construction played within their non-distorting limits will sound very similar. "
The better the system - including speakers and listening environment - the easier this is disproved. Dozens of people on this forum can attest to the audible benefit of replacing a 12AU7 with a different tube, changing coupling caps, etc. If you can't hear the difference in various amplifiers, you'll either need to call in other listeners with better ears, or resign yourself to building to specs and your own taste.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
And within the 12u7 tubes different manufacturers sound different. This conclusion is over the top even for the number guys.
It seems like we go from 2 ohm change in grid stop resistors or 6 inches of wire to it all sounds the same. Is there not anything in-between???
Well the good news for Vinnie is he does not have to seek out NOS 845 tubes.
Enjoy the ride
Tom
And just how many of those people are hearing a difference because they want to hear a difference? That is a not uncommon problem. Tell you what TK, spend the $15 for a switch and try it for yourself. Then I will be willing to listen to what you are saying. Until then it is just speculation on your part.
Edits: 07/10/17
Vinnie you have gone from trying to learn something to Trying to prove your hypothesis and test procedures are valid.
Anyone who can hear music and has any real building experience knows this is beyond belief.
Good news there are tons of cheap tubes to play with. There are cheap 1000 watt class D amp boards all over the net.
Enjoy the ride
Tom
Read the reply I gave to TK. It applies to your post as well. Not one single person has been willing to try it for themselves, but many are willing to speculate. When someone actually tries it I will listen. And regarding the "cheap" amps, my summary says quite clearly they must well constructed. That usually does not mean cheap.
By the way, I have built or bread boarded over 30 tube amps in the last 15 years Tom, how many have you built?
Edits: 07/10/17
Vinnie I build amps where I can change components with nut removal. I use solid pure silver wire with copper and brass hardware.
That being said I have built 2,3 and 4 stage amps with all the so called great load devices. Throw in different transformers and driver and output tube variations and you are well into the hundreds to thousands of variations. Did I mention caps, resistors, wire, fixed, tube fixed, cathode, diode, and various battery bias. Did I forget to mention power supplies? Choke loaded cap loaded small cap loaded with values all over the place.
To give you an example my latest phono stage is 3 stages lcr transformer coupled go against the mainstream monster. I tried about 15 different tubes in the first position with different b+ and current. Guess what did not need a switch to tell me the difference between them. Off the top of my head and it has been a year, some popular ones 12at7 lean
6922 to rich 5842 boring Da3 transistor sounding. Of the well known tubes the 12at7 showed some real promise. The texture and tone on the piano was really good. Attack and decay where also good. It could get a little bright on some recordings so it is gone. The moral of the story no one has my phono stage not even close, so I had to try all this stuff that all the graphs in the world will not do it for me. In regards to not being able to hear differences for more than a few seconds I have no real answer.
Well you seem intent on your position. But you will not be able to further it with my lack of building experience. You could say I am delusional and need to be blind tested into submission but lack of experience, probably not your best defense.
It is a hobby that should be enjoyed so I will leave you to your conclusions. The one thing we know for sure is enjoyment is subjective. So put on John Lee Hooker or BB and party on.
Enjoy the building
Tom
You're the one who insinuated that it was probably my lack of building experience that was causing me to think they could all sound the same so I thought it only fair you state your qualification. I would think that with all your vast experience you could just whip together a setup like mine in no time at all and actually base your comments on something you had done. Doesn't seem to be your style though, so I will just leave you to your speculations.
OK Vinnie you baited me one more time. Before I started building all my own stuff I had a standard el34 push pull running in Triode mode. I had a tube salon in Phoenix who loaned me a 300b parallel set amp. What a piece of crap in my system. Now my speakers are only 91 db efficient but a flat load line. Are you getting the point yet. No switches required did not have to listen for the decay in a certain piano passage it was just awful.
Had another amp it was a Cary. You could use el 34, 6550, or kt88's. That was over 15 years ago. Had 2 sets of el 34 tube which where pretty close. Nice midrange nice balance. The RCA 6550 where more detailed but on the lean not real dyanmics side. The kt88 where probability a little midbass heavy but overall tone and dyanmics were very good.
So let me get back to your test. I rolled those tubes in that amp alot. With that circuit the sound was repeatable again and again. Cold or hot same characteristics.
So let's bring this to a logical conclusion. If a person in a OK design tube amp can hear the differences in just the tubes in the same amp, what are the odds in completely different designs with different components and no less output transformers, that a person who can hear might detect a difference???
For the record right now I have the halogen amps for the 845 filament on a switch. The halogen in this push pull was about the same noise but more sterile sounding. Kind of like what a CD does to music. The other switches are on the phono which switch 12 different caps in the riaa section. The caps in that position make a big difference. Almost like having a tone/flavor control.
So to recap without having your amps speakers, front end, clip leads etc... The switch has no bearing. I would bet anyone who can build and hear could make those amps of yours sound different.
I guess when it is all said and done, if YOU can not hear a difference, who gives a shit about what I think??? There are some sincere replies on this thread at least trying to figure out your dilemma.
Enjoy the bread board
Tom
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"Not one single person has been willing to try it for themselves, but many are willing to speculate. "If you read the few posts I've contributed to this thread, you'd know that's not true. I was involved in extensive A/B testing of amps and preamps many years ago. I no longer do this, simply because my ears are no longer good enough. Of course, no one can suggest that might be true in your case without drawing an accusation of condescension. Nor do you seem to want to accept other explanations, even when offered by inmates with considerably more experience than yourself (which includes me). Really, why bother to ask the question if you don't want the benefit of the knowledge and opinions of others? It appears your mind is made up, and you're actually only seeking a means to confirm an erroneous conclusion.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Edits: 07/10/17
Go back to the OP and see what my question really was TK. I stated quite clearly I only wanted to hear from anyone who had actually tried this themselves. Apparently that part escaped you. I don't give a big rats #$@ what the conclusion is as long as it is one that is done in a manner that can be duplicated by others, including me. I just want to know the truth through a demonstrable test. Why are you so afraid to try the setup I used TK? My mind is not made up, but it will not give in to speculation or hearsay either. Try the test then get back to me. As I said no one has tried it themselves so far.
Edits: 07/10/17
"I stated quite clearly I only wanted to hear from anyone who had actually tried this themselves."
FROM MY POSTS: I was involved in extensive double-blind A/B tests of SS amplifiers in the '70s and '80s. AND... I was involved in extensive A/B testing of amps and preamps many years ago. I'll add here that I've bench tested thousands of amplifiers - tube and SS - in my lifetime. Do you really think you're the first person to switch between amplifiers in an effort to hear the difference? I did this decades ago.
"Why are you so afraid to try the setup I used TK?"
FROM MY POST: "I no longer do this, simply because my ears are no longer good enough." I'll bet the same applies to you (older than me), and that the cheap OPTs you insist on using for these tests aren't helping you differentiate the details that would otherwise be obvious.
"As I said no one has tried it themselves so far."
You're just not paying attention.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
I don't care what you did 30 years ago TK, try it now the way I set it up and see what you get. What are you afraid of?
Vinnie,
The folks here are trying to help you - now and have done extensively in the past. They share their experience and opinions and invest their time and energy.
Mostly, they don't need you to agree with them; but, it might nice to appreciate their efforts and demonstrate modicum of respect by not personally attacking and baiting them.
So, you didn't have your position validated. Don't fret! You'll get all the validation you could ask for at Hydrogen Audio.
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
If these guys (two in particular) are trying so hard to help me, then why can't they just spend a few hours and set up the same test rig that I did and see for themselves one way or the other?
As far as attacking and baiting, if you follow the thread you will see that was only done in response to attacking and baiting on their part, and not before. Tit for tat as it were. And I am not fretting, I am pissed. The attitude that a few people display on this forum of "how dare you not accept what we say as gospel" is a bit much to take. The whole idea of this forum is supposed to be about trying new things and learning as you do so, but you would hardly ever know that from the responses and dogma that several people here post.
Edits: 07/11/17
Vinnie, I don't see them baiting and tit for tat achieves little but burning relationships.
Yes, you are pissed. Others are exasperated and frustrated. There is little to be gained from continuing in this vein. It might be best to just step away for a bit.
I'll take my own advice also.
Take care.
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
If you don't see the baiting and insinuations then you did not look very carefully. Start at "summary" and go from there for a short while.
Edits: 07/11/17 07/11/17 07/11/17
There will be a considerable amount of:
if you can't tell the difference, then...
1. you're stupid
2. can't hear
3. have a crappy system
4. don't know how to listen 'properly'
5. your choice of amp topology, components, tubes, etc is poor
How you choose to deal with it is entirely up to you...:)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
And the thread takes up more than half the page.
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