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In Reply to: RE: Initial A/B test between PP and SE 6bq5 amps posted by vinnie2 on June 27, 2017 at 04:02:16
If they each had cobbled-together power supplies, similar output transformers, cathode bias circuits configurations... or some other dominating/limiting factor to which SETs are sensitive (speaker?), sure it can.
But sure, you may be hearing a larger difference between topologies SE versus PP than you are between tube types in your SE implementations - but you mention hearing differences between your SE implementations in your build threads.
I'd posit that SE is easy to well enough, but tough to well. I reckon I could easily and cheaply make a nice-sounding, but dull, unresolved SE amp with almost any common DHT. If I sued the same components and transformer quality with PP, the PP would probably sound more dynamic and resolved.
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Follow Ups:
That's my point, they do not have cobbled together psu's or similar opts and yet they all sounded very similar. The 813 amp in particular had a very good psu and magnequest fs030's for opts, but the differences I heard were quite small, like maybe a little better bass. And none of them are dull, they just have the smoothing effect of the se topology compared to the pp.
I'm sure you have noted - which may be why you are asking - that others have noticed differences between tubes. Hell, I can tell the difference between 2A3 brands and cathode capacitors... significant, but not changing the presentation at a gross level - I could like with any of them (though as time goes on, I increasingly dislike the Mundorf Evo Oil in the 2A3 cathode bypass spot).
Perhaps in your case - with your musical preferences/orientation, systems, implementation - the differences between topologies are more significant than the differences between tubes.
So much could be influencing the outcome, your perception of it, and you conclusions. I don't have the time or experience to dive into a thorough examination of what might be going on. From memory, your builds seemed ad hoc; still, you were excited to have noticed some sonic differences between builds. Perhaps not as great as the differences between topologies (surprise - that's why each topology has its advocates), but greater than "quite small, like maybe a little better bass".
I will be building a SET that uses the same the tubes as my current amp - but uses a more "evolved" approach - and am interested in hearing whether the evolution is for the better, worse or simply makes minimal change.
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
If possible please let us know what you hear, what you think made things different, and in what way. The trouble with this forum is that we have to describe what we are hearing instead of letting each other listen to what we are talking. Difficult at best. I would put all this down to my hearing if I hadn't ask my wife to listen as well. I told her nothing of what to expect except that she should tell what she heard different between the amps. Her hearing is quite good and she has helped me sort things out before. She said there seemed to be so little difference between the three amps as to be negligible. I want to know why that is, so I guess I will have to keep digging. None of the explanations I have heard so far seem to explain what I am hearing.
Shortly I will be able to listen to the pp amp in stereo and I will test it against an se amp then and see what I hear then.
Edits: 06/28/17 06/28/17 06/28/17
I'm with you - it can be tough to communicate in text... and I'm not great at it. I try to say too much - most not relevant - only to confuse people, including myself! Probably because I type as I think... and I am NOT a lineal thinker - stuff all over the mental place!I'll let you know how I go vinnie - I'm starting to move ahead with the project after a year hiatus... not cheap though, but hey, I don't have too many other vices or hobbies. I've just done a second cut of the layout and sub-chassis design - I'll be emailing to plastics supplier tomorrow, I hope. Then I can organise the chassis. Then build. :)
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Edits: 06/28/17 06/29/17
Vinnie I know you said you did not want to invest in interstage transformers so I would try a direct coupled schematic even if you do not use it in the long run. Get rid of any grid stop resistors again just for the test no ccs no mu followers etc. Find the most basic schematic and no feedback.
You get the point. Also build a bread board adjustable fixed bias at least for the power tubes. Then you can dial in the current by ear.
There is a problem somewhere if you can not hear a difference between those 3 tubes in the set circuit. There is a clog in the drain. I went away from main stream builds years ago but I realize that interstage transformers cost some dough. Come think of it Andy got pretty good results with the cheap Hammond interstage. Might want to search that out.
Well at least you are trying and listening which is more than most anymore. I also just remembered are you still using the high frequency and/or a switcher filament? If yes go ac on the cheap, even if some hum. You can always add back all the great things that are supposed to be great on paper latter.
You got time so have some fun.
Enjoy the ride
Tom
The only possible clog in the drain is through the switch setup I put together, and I can't imagine what that would be. The output of each of two amps go to the switch and then one button determines which amp is feed to the speakers. Both amps stay on the whole time. There are 10 ohm/30 watt resistors across the output terminals of each amp to make sure they remain under a load during switching, but they are identical for each amp. I compare two amps at a time, and change out only one at a time so I have a reference point from the last test. Last but not least I have read in several different places on the internet that say the biggest difference would be between pp & se, not between different tube types.
Have you ever done a similar a/b test with two se amps with different output tubes when both amps were on full time and you could switch between them with a push of one button? So far no one has chimed in that they have tried this and got different results than I did. I wish someone would, because I think it is the only valid way to test them for similar sound.
Edits: 06/28/17
To be honest I am not a single ended guy.
Heard a big difference between 45 vs 2a3 single ended in someone else's system.
Anytime I change a tube in a phono stage, pre amp, driver or power tube I hear a difference. I hear differences in caps resistors etc. Change the b+ or current thru a tube and it will change the sound. Your tube examples are big time different. So the only thing I can guess is some component is getting in the way.
You might post over on the set forum and bottle head. Maybe Paul will chime in. He knows what he is talking about.
Well keep up the good fight you will get to the bottom of this.
Enjoy
Tom
I am surprised Paul hasn't chimed in on some of my posts already. If anyone should be able to give us knowledgeable answers to some of these questions it would be him. Maybe he doesn't want to start a major debate!
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