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In Reply to: RE: DIY vs. Commercial you can do better. posted by DAK on January 20, 2017 at 03:52:59
That is funny. I think just the opposite of you.I think most DIY below-the-deck shots I see photos of are atrocious, and circuit implementations, are a waste of the person's time and money, compared to a good commercial product.
Most DIYers do not KNOW how to lay out an amp really really well ( me included ) and most make horrible choices, by penny pinching, or not KNOWING what is a good sounding or a poor sounding part to use from the onset.
Some are SO amateurish and go so far as to think a bread board is a viable amp...it isn't !! Lay out is huge factor in making a great amp.
I will mention just two products, commercial audio amps. In the solid state realm, a Spectral DMA-200S and in the tube world, my good friend Dennis of Serious Stereo, his latest 2A3 amps. Think a DIYer at home can beat either commercial amp ?? If so, you will be 100% wrong.
Some others come to mind, the people at Berkeley Audio, and the great sounding MBL amps and speakers.
There are many good reasons to do DIY, and I ENJOY it, but don't think for one millisecond, you will outdo the folks in the San Francisco area, and Montana, Germany, etc, the Professionals.
Of course, one must be able to discern, the good from the bad in the commercial realm.
All the names I've mentioned off the top of my head, have superior products, to ANY DIY implementations. Get REAL !!
Cheers,
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 01/24/17 01/24/17Follow Ups:
Jeff,
When and where did you hear the "Spectral DMA-200"? On what speakers? What length of time where you able to evaluate said amp?
Have you heard Boulder, the other example you have sited?
Sure, a 3000.00 amp better sound better than my 500.00 amp. But comparing my 500.00 cost amp to commercial products? Up to 1500.00 Not even close. Who are you Kidding?
Actually I compared a 3500.00, SE 845 Raphaelite amp to my SE pentode KT90 amp which costs about 500 for the parts, and they both sounded very close with the Raphael amp having a miniscule edge in resolution while my amp was better at bass and dynamics. So i think your statement isn't in left field, not even in the ballpark, maybe in the parking lot, at the end of the row.
Hi DAK,Neither that amp you compared yours to, nor the amp you built, ( if its an 845 ), would "I" ever want to be stuck with, to listen to.
First of all, there is NO need for an 845 amp on 98 dB or better speakers.
Second of all, there is NO need for a three stage amp, when a well designed two stage, especially Direct Coupled, will CREME it.
You are, thus far, unable to discern that !!
As I have said, in all my posts in this thread, it has NOT much to do with money, but the ability to DISCERN the good from the MANY MANY audio also-rans.
My amp references remain, the four amps I have mentioned. Any 845 amp is KIDDIE stuff compared to those, and low in overall fidelity to boot.
I do commend you for building DIY amps. I enjoy doing that myself. But I try to at least copy the best available. I DISCERNED " what end is up ", what was the best, years ago, by going to CES and RMAF shows, etc. You DAK, need to do that, and learn what end is up, so that you, too, will discern better.
Ever hear a MBL amp, playing their Radialstrayler ( sp ??) speaker?? Oh my goodness. You should !!
Have fun, continue to broaden your audio horizons, I do that myself, all the time. Live and learn.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 01/26/17
DAK, you are on the right track. Commercial stuff is nutty expensive, and if it is making money, it is either even nuttier, or bean-countered.
It does not take a genius to do this; it is for the most part just solid engineering( like any other product ). I've played and A-B'd with some talented folks. That in and of itself is entertaining. Learned a bit from each of them.
As to the traditional insults leveled at this opinion, like 'you just can't tell the difference'...there is no argument to be won. That is why it is used so often...LOL I take its use as an admission of defeat.
That argument is widely used to part fools from their money with techno-babble in a well documented fashion you've no doubt read about and seen in action by salesmen of any sort. LOL...if you are good enough, you will be admitted to the club where you can spend even more money. No thanks.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Hi Doug, and thank you for commenting. I will not be baited into a blatant attempt at trying to stir up the pot of controversy over something as obvious as night and day. The doc (sic) should take some of his own medicine. With comments such as "trust your ears" and "have fun, i am". It seems that those terms should be amended with, which can not happen unless you are "experienced" which accordingly, can not be attained without listening to specifically recommended equipment.
I wonder why a person with such beliefs would be part of the DIY community? It is obviously a waste of time for someone with that "experience". sincerely, Dak
Yep...don't get baited. It took me a while to recognize that, 'you aren't good enough to hear the difference' argument as an admission of defeat...LOL
I love some of the Irony presented in the arguments. In one paragraph, they tout some EE PhD, and in the next claim all such knowledge is worthless.
And then there is the techno-babble...'transfer efficiency' indeed.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
**** But I said you have to be able to discern, DISCERN, what is a good commercial product. *****You have not enough experience, have no clue !!!
Since you are talking tube amps, I referred to Dennis' Serious Stereo, latest 2A3 amp. If you compared your " close " 500 dollar amp, to that much more expensive Serious Stereo amp, you would slink away from the A-B like a doggie, with his tale between his legs. Solid State amp, try a Spectral DMA 200S, or an MBL.
If you WANT the best, you have to first KNOW what it is, then you pay for it. If you are unable to DISCERN, and accomplish either, that is not my problem.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 01/25/17
DIY audio is a leisure activity into itself. The idea that it's possible to make something in your garage which will compete viably with a highly praised $10k commercial product is of course complete insanity, unless there's a genius at work.But it's certainly possible to build something which will compete performance wise with gear in lower price categories.
I liken it to people who build cars in their garage. No person in his right mind believes that his home made car is going to be objectively better than a commercial product.. I think that just isn't the point.
It's an outlet to express creativity and enjoy solving some puzzles. And there's a feeling of accomplishment when the end product is satisfying. I strongly suspect that many people in the DIY community enjoy thinking about amplifiers and working on them as much as they enjoy using them... and what's wrong with that?
How to mitigate hum? In my experience, the nastiest, worst, sneakiest thing in an amplifier is the connection between the power transformer and the negative side of the first filter capacitor. If this isn't a direct connection, even a milliohm will introduce hum into the amplifier. And if the capacitor is over sized off a solid state rectifier, it won't be hum, it will be buzz.
Edits: 01/24/17
Good observation! You want your grounds short, and made from VERY heavy current conductors.
-Dennis-
I have achieved decent results paralleling specific circuit board traces on a couple commercial amps which were not that well designed with bare #14 from Romex - not the stuff of high end, sure, but it made a noticible reduction in background noise.
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