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108.21.60.113
They are beyond my budget, but for any inmates with a ¼" half-track 15-ips deck, the now long list of "protection" (safety) tape copies includes some legendary recordings in the best possible format.
I bid on a few last week, thinking that some of the more obscure recordings would go for $100-ish. Check the completed auctions to see what they have been selling for. If you have deep pockets, there are gems there.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
Follow Ups:
Starting price: $9.99
finished at: $760.00
Without knowing the actual origins of this dupe.
Perhaps the bidders know something we don't?
One can imagine all of the mastering engineers that have had access to these tapes over the years. Who was the last....Bernie Grundman while doing a remaster for Classic Records?
-Steve
A few years ago I sold a case of 10.5 inch maxell recording tapes to them. I suppose they could make their own 'protection tapes' providing they are sourced from 'protection tapes'. Can someone here definitely define what a 'protection tape' is? Can a fifth generation meet the criteria?
Oh, it's tremendously relevant.
Vbr,
Sam
Reel Lady's ebay store now lists zero titles following the big sale on that merc Stravinsky Firebird safety copy.
There had been at least a dozen protection copies listed at the link. Now the store is empty. Something must be up.
-Steve
That happened after the first batch she sold a couple weeks ago. Probably took a little time to get paid and send that batch to the buyers. Nothing sinister, IMO. Could be she's run out of these tapes except maybe any that didn't meet the reserve she had on them.
Now it seems the store shows a similar stock of protection copies. Plenty of titles. Zero bids at this time.
I wonder if she doesn't have a warehouse full of tapes. She certainly gets a supply from somewhere. While the rest of us wonder.
-Steve
She will never run out of tapes, she has a wharehouse full of them!!!
She will never run out of tapes because they are copies that she has made.
Why is she allowed to flout US copyright laws, and why does the tape community reward this skullduggery?
Most of her tapes are on stock that has been out of production for some time, so the notion that she is making copies seems to me unlikely. (The one I have is on BASF LGR50, which was last produced in 1998.)
I'm glad she's doing it. It would be a shame to have these recordings, some of which sound terrific, locked up somewhere or thrown out. If you look through my past posts, you'll know I am a huge advocate of paying artists for their work - I often turn down offers of CDs from artists who come in the studio where I assist, and I go out and buy them. But... in this case I think having these recordings out is worth it, especially given the *extremely* low volume involved. There are precious few people with 15 ips half-track decks, and very few of those people shell out the serious money for these tapes.
Sadly, I am no longer one of them. My Otari is on its way to a new home. I kept my tapelady Egmont (Abbaddo, Berlin, 1981 - never released as far as I can tell) and some day I'll have another machine; at least that's the plan.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
Hi Bill,
We may disagree about whether breaking the law, and not paying artists/labels for their work in this case, is something about which to be glad. If you are saying that you know that your Egmont was never released, then you also know that you possess an illegal copy, right? Of course, as far as I know, the onus is not on you legally, but I do think it is on the seller. It is surprising, though, to see that even people who are clearly concerned with and sensitive to artists' rights still see this as a victimless crime.
Earlier in this thread it was pointed out that your experience is not everyone's: plenty of these are made on tape stock that is more "modern" than its recorded content.
Be sure to show us the photographs.
I don't think they know anything special, other than the seller's good feedback rating. Yes, they are probably 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation tapes, but may sound better than any other publicly available medium. If I had the budget, I'd get one, along with one or more of the Tape Project issues.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
Bidding isn't over (as I write), but these tapes are all going for upwards of $300 each, with few exceptions, and a top of just under $700 so far.
I bid on three of them and lost them all, big-time. I thought this was supposed to be a dead medium :-)
Dave's comments echo what many others have said. Folks have bid on these tapes, only to get outbid by someone else. It can be fustrating.
Bidding on safety masters, is not a lot different than bidding on other collectable items. The drawback is once you start listening to these high speed tapes, its akin to an audiophile drug, you want more, since their sound quality is so good, you have to have more.....
Just so we're all clear, there is no evidence whatsoever that these tapes are anything more than copies of copies of copies of unknown quality made by an unknown entity.
:)
Not until someone reports hearing one, I guess. Or you might have discussed the provenance of these tapes with reel-lady, as I did. And no, I won't pass along anything she told me, other than what I quoted below.There IS the fact (not conjecture) that a 2-track commercial Columbia tape of "Kind of Blue" went for $700 on eBay and a 2-track of Brubeck's "Time Out" for over $2K. I have a 4-track of the Miles Davis and can actually believe that someone popped that kind of money for the 2-track.
Just so we're all clear.
Edits: 08/11/14
Dave, this is not a pissing contest. I simply pointed out the facts.You have an emotional connection with Reel-lady. I don't.
There is zero provenance with regard to these tapes.
With regard to "Kind Of Blue", I'm happy to say that I have Columbia CL 1355, quite by accident.
:)
Edits: 08/12/14
It's hard to know where to start, but I do love the idea that I have an "emotional connection" with someone from whom I've bought maybe half a dozen tapes over 10 years or so. As to your "facts," well, I guess your smiley is supposed to cover things like that.
But, wow, a mono KOB "vinyl," as the kids say.
How about listing your system so we can get a fix on how serious you are about reel-to-reel tape? This is "Tape Trail," after all.
"Reel-lady" (Deborah Gunn) ... (I've bought from her often)"
"someone from whom I've bought maybe half a dozen tapes over 10 years or so"
Whichever.
Yeah, I started wondering about the last time I had actually bought a tape from reel-lady. Could I be thinking of her sister, who operates as o-Jayne (or something like that)? Yeah, the last couple or three came from her sister. They're equally responsible and credible tape sellers, but I DID buy from reel-lady back in the day. Just can't remember when was the last time, and precisely how often. Could have been six. Could have been ten.
In any event, I wager that I bought more from the two of them than you have in your entire open reel tape collection. But I could be wrong.
Sue me.
The last time I bought tape was when I bought a 12-reel box of Quantegy 499.
Still have three of them unused.
:)
Hey Dave, here's a little info on my stuff: Revox A77 MK IV high speed 2 track, Schoeps dual-pattern condensers, Valley People mic preamps, AKG K240 headphones, Atlas MS-25 mic stands, Belden 8412 cable. I'd usually use Maxell UD, TDK LX, or Agfa PEM 469. I also have a variety of concert recordings that I made on Ampex 407 and 456 - hence the tape baking oven.
In the past, I've worked with the Stellavox Sp7 and the Studer A80 (both awesome machines!), but both were too rich for me to buy personally! Maybe now in the used marketplace...
You?
:)
Though it might better have been posted to one of my posts than one of yours. But as you say, whichever :-)
I've had many decks since the late 1950s, starting with a Revere something-or-other. Multiple Magnecords and Teacs, single Viking and Revox. No live site recordings but many hundreds of commercial, off-air, dubs, reissue and new original tapes, all quarter-inch. I probably listen at least 30-40% of the time to tapes.
Main current deck is a tricked-out Otari MX5050 BII-2, 3 speeds, 2- and 4-track, modded with direct tapehead output to deHavilland 222 tapehead preamp (superb sounding, five tubes, IEC and NAB EQ, much recommended). I also installed a Bottlehead tape path mod kit (roller bearings sted of fixed tape guides) which improved sonics and totally eliminated squeal from a few noisy tapes.
I use a lot of Maxell UD and XLI. For new stuff prefer various ATR and Emtec (I guess that's about all the "new" stock there is these days, sad to say).
"See? That wasn't so hard."
LOL
I KNEW you were going to say that!
Generally, I don't like to post info about my stuff, and rarely read inmate's system info. It tends to put people in a box/category. I prefer to read what they have to say, and decide if it makes any sense.
www.youramerica.net
:)
I didn't really know where to add this but,..
This thread is exactly what happens when these eBay safety master type tapes are discussed.
In this particular thread there are many of the reel to reel faithful and I think each of us know a number of others who don't participate in this forum.
So, how is it, that not one of us knows someone who has even heard one of these tapes?
Now I do understand that there are a few well healed tape lovers out there who have been buying entire collections of safety/production masters when they're come up for sale from either the engineers, studio owners etc. usually when the facilities have closed, moved or just plain needed the space (I have a 1/2" jazz safety that was dumped because it was redundant and the bean counters wanted that 1/2").
That's a whole different thing IMHO.
And maybe a couple want to preserve their "happy hunting grounds" and I truly sympathize with that.
But when not one person wants to brag about the sound of these tapes to any of us, I assume that they aren't worth the money.
It's not like AA's Tape Trail is read religiously by, say 50 people.
And it's not like these, say 50 people, are sufficiently well-heeled to consider popping $400 each for a tape of admittedly questionable provenance.
Maybe I should have been a little more detailed in my last post.
As far as I know, this is the first time this subject has been addressed on the Tape Trail but it has be discussed a few times over on the Tape Project Forum (I'm the moderator there).
And while it's sad to say that both this and the Tape Project's attendance has been lacking the past year or so, we still get quite a few "views" on the subject of any potential source of great sounding tapes.
This is usually well over 1000.
So, what I should have made clear was that these are just WAG's but this thread is not what I'm basing them on but rather just adds fuel to that particular fire.
"How about listing your system so we can get a fix on how serious you are about reel-to-reel tape?"
I don't have a profile or system list for a reason.
The reason is, it doesn't matter.
What matters is the veracity of my comments.
WRT reel-to-reel, I'll just say that I have a purpose-built "oven" for "baking" tapes.
:)
Linky to the ones you're talking about? My search yielded 2,000+ listings.
8-)
It would not surprise me if two or three of them are bogus.
:)
Scroll past the 8-tracks.
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
I wouldn't touch any of those tapes with a plug nickel.
My guess is that those are copies of tapes, or maybe even copies from CDs, dressed up to look "important".
:)
You don't get 100% positive feedback on TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND transactions by pulling scams. "Reel-lady" (Deborah Gunn) is one of the long-time denizens of eBay's open reel site (I've bought from her often) and a credit to the "community."
I have not bought any of the safety copies from Reel Lady or from other sellers that seem to everywhere on eBay these days as I also have not seen enough credibility in the statements that the tapes are legitimate. From my own experience with master tapes or their copies I'm suspect of any that do not have documentation on the tape boxes themselves.
The tapes may have been bought as pancakes. Their metal reels or flanges may have been added later to add legitimacy. I can't remember the specific title (Boston S/T?) of a 7.5 IPS reel that Reel Lady claims was from a record company executive, but it was on the Columbia or Epic labels where the commercial issued tape should have been at 3.75 IPS. It appeared odd that it was a 4 track tape so it may have been made for compatibility instead of for sound quality so I did not bid.
I have bought a legitimate production reel from a seller in South America and am satisfied with it's audio quality. I have met one person who bought (at least one) safety copy from someone in Florida who felt it was legit and was satisfied with the sound quality.
If these tapes had conclusive proof as being real (pun intended) I'm certain that they will sell for a lot more. The first lot of master tapes (20-30) from the jazz label Concord looked to be legitimate and they were all bought by one buyer who had something like 15,000 as their eBay feedback. From what I could tell all the feedback came as a buyer.
I am not aware of Reel Lady's ability to test the raw tapes to determine which brand could be. It would require a lot of experience and test equipment.
I have bought many tapes both two track and four track from Reel Lady since she began selling on eBay and have always left positive feedback.
I've bought commercial prerecorded reel tapes from reel-lady and they were fine. But I'd be really skeptical about a so-called "safety master" made on a modern tape like Emtec. And skeptical because I've made 15 ips 2-track copies of CDs that sound great. How could one definitively determine the source of the recording?
It would be best to hear from a respected member of the tape community who has actually bought and listened to these. Are there any on this list?
Not trying to be snarky, but think it through. If one of them tests out to be the holy grail of tapedom, that proves only that one of them does. And if all of them do -- and this is known in advance -- it will simply double or triple the selling price.
And what's wrong with a modern tape by Emtec? A well-done dupe on 468 sure beats hell out of getting a safety master made on Ampex 406 or 456 and suffering through its inevitable sticky shed. As one poster notes, a dupe that's several generations away from an original master can sound altogether awesome. I know this for a fact, myself.
So why don't you bid on one ore more and give us your feedback. That's what I'm going to do if I win one, which is a big "if." Won't help the other tape nuts, though, since it only applies to these particular tapes and the auctions will be over :-)
Michael22 mentions, "But I'd be really skeptical about a so-called "safety master" made on a modern tape like Emtec".
All modern tape means is the tape is likely a copy of a safety master, or was run off by a studio in recent times (the last few years) on EMTEC, since almost all studios using analog tape are now using EMTEC. The supplies of 3M 996 or any of the Quantegy formulations are long gone (have been comsumed or used up), let alone any of the older scotch formulations such as 206, 207, 226, 227, 208 and 250. And even if the copy was not run off by a studio, but run off by a private individual, as long as he used good equipment the sound quality should still be fantastic.
As most of you likely already know, the older 3M formulations mentioned should all be still good except the 226 and 227. If you buy a safety master on those scotch formulations, you will have to bake it, and them make a copy on fresh tape.
Almost all of the time, a safety master is a copy of either a dupication master, a production master, or a broadcast master; never a session master, and seldom an EQ master since the session parts seldom fit on a single reel, and would include all the outtakes, partial sessions etc, that a typical audience would not want to hear.
Detemining the production on a given safety master is really tough if not impossible to do. As Dave noted, your best bet is to give it a listen and see how it sounds, but even then, since you don't have the session master or production master avaiable to compare it to, still a very tough call to make.
Besides being the 1st gen, and having the excellent sound, the session masters can be good fun to listen to since its not cleaned up through production, so it "beams you back Scotty" to the time when the recording was made. You hear all the wise cracks, the partial takes, the joking between musicians and the producer etc. all captured on tape at that point in time, usually long ago. If you have a single malt, it can transform you back in time for a short while. Every once in a while, some of these partial takes or outtakes do make it to commercial release, but not often.
Having said the ablove, even having a 4th gen copy of a safety master is still going to give you better sound quality than any commerical release including most of the hi rez down loads.
This now brings this full circle since there is a bit of a chance you are taking buying these safety masters. The chance has to be minimal though, otherwise folks would not continue to buy them.
Now if we can get more studios to unplug their compressors, and effects boxes from the signal chain, be it analog or digital, we would get that much closer to the sound of the actual recorded event. But that is a topic for another time.
Happy listening.
J
i'm not going to bid on one because 1) i have too much stuff already; 2) the tapes are beyond my budget; 3) the provenance of these tapes has not been verified; and, 4) i haven't heard convincing feedback on the quality of these tapes.
somewhat off-topic: an audiophile friend just added an Esoteric SACD player to his system, and, frankly, the sound quality is extremely good. one of the disks i played was a copy of the great 2-track Westminster tape of Stravinsky's L'Histoire du Soldat. amazing sound quality, even on the CD transfer.
Was that the High Definition Tape Transfers release? HDTT works from 4-track and 2-track 7½ ips commercial releases, and sometimes from 2-track 15 ips copies, such as the Klipsch recordings. They do an excellent job.
The Westminster 2-track 7½ ips commercial release pops up on eBay from time to time. Grab it if you can. It was recorded in Carnegie Hall. I would love to hear a 15 ips release of this recording.
I'd like to think you're right. But there are some issues. First, several of them are described as Emtec 468 mastering tape, even though Emtec didn't make tape back then (since Emtec didn't exist) AND the reels and boxes are a variety of styles and brands AND 468 tape (whether BASF, Agfa, or Emtec) didn't exist when Fritz Reiner conducted the CSO. Also, there are two tapes (Decca - Rite of Spring, and RCA - Also Sprach Zarathustra), both with Scotch/3M boxes and reels, which both have a nice flat pack but both have a discontinuity at about 1.5 inches from the hub. I find this odd - two tapes from different record companies, identical reels, and identical discontinuities. Further, the labelling sucks, which a top pro recording engineer wouldn't do.
All of these factors would indicate that these are not original safety masters.
So, as I said in my earlier post, it's likely that these are copies from "somewhere". To give Reel-Lady the benefit of the doubt, she may not know the history of these tapes. Still, it's her site claiming they're on Emtec 468.
:)
I'll post her response assuming I get one.
I can think of any number of reasons, legitimate and otherwise, why these tapes exist. For starters, I see no reason why a safety master need be made at the same time as the original. Maybe the original was on tape that's subject to sticky shed syndrome. Maybe the performance was being reissued and the reissuing organization thought it wise to make a dupe (or just wanted one).
I've bid on several "safety masters" (none offered by reel-lady) but not yet won one. Assuming the seller has flawless feedback, there's precious little danger of losing your money. If the tape you buy isn't up to snuff -- for ANY reason -- a threat of negative feedback will get your money back fast. I've bought hundreds of tapes on eBay and NEVER had the slightest problem getting a refund, including shipping costs, for a bummer.
Exactly.
ET
Several on this post have made some valid points. And the comment on lineage, woulde be impossible to track down or detail out, since it also applies to sometimes many in the industry. When a studio gets a prodiuction dub, the assumption is made its as close as possible to the session parts. Sometimes this is the case, other times its just a copy of a copy of a copy that gets sent.
"and for most of us, the actual lineage of these tapes will probably never be known"
I spent a number of years at studios in the Hollywood area, and have orig session masters, production masters, production dups, and safetly masters. Some at 15 and some at 30. The sound quality does vary widely, but regardless, any of these versions are better than any commercially released format the public would normally have access to.
So while the "safety masters" sold on ebay may not be one or two generations removed from the production master (they are likely further removed from the session master), they are still much better sonics than any other format available to the individual interested in the best possible sound through analog tape.
best
@mcgjohn,
Stereo mix master dubs appeal to me. Would a stereo mix master -- a 2-channel affair just leaving the mastering house, for example -- be considered a session master, production master,...?
Thanks.
Vbr,
Sam
"Dave, individual production masters of original studio label productions were made for most countries around the world. During the 1980s many record companies, particularly in Eastern Europe, disposed of their distribution masters after their being digital archived and these analog masters have ended up in private collections in North America and Europe. Most were on tape stock that was not holding up well with age, so a number of production copies were made from them."
As Megjohn notes above -- see his last paragraph -- these copies are likely far better sounding than "any other format available ...." Which is why they keep getting snatched up at higher bids than I have been able to match to date :-)
But I'm going to keep trying.
It's worth noting that the tape stock used for many of the ones being sold by reel-lady (Emtec 468) is REALLY good tape and not cheap.
The name "safety masters" is used very loosely these days and for most of us, the actual lineage of these tapes will probably never be known.
Frankly, I believe that knowing the exact history of these kinds of tapes can only drive up the price.
If the new owner wants to, it would be good fun to research this stuff after you've bought it.
What is important to me is the sound. If the sound of well known recording is good enough (better than any media), they are worth the money.
If not, than you're just buyin' the braggin rights!
I think you may be right. There are quite a few inconsistencies, like the 1964 Heifetz Brahms Sextet on RMG-911. Actually, I suspect she just got a huge batch of tapes and tried to figure out what they were.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
Just like you I've been tempted by a number of these 15ips 1/4" tapes but the price has always kept me from pulling the trigger.
You might question a card carrying fan of The Tape Project how the prices could stop me.
It's all the unanswered questions. None of these tapes that I know of, are coming from folks directly involved with the original recording sessions, studio or record companies. All we know is what's written on the box or reel and that could have been written yesterday.
I've asked a number of times how the folks who are buying these tapes like them and never gotten any answer.
I have heard some tapes that were produced by folks who have tapes like these and are selling copies, and I've never been impressed by the sound (the music has been outstanding).
So, once again, if you are one of the tape fans who loves these tapes, please speak up.
I'm sure that all sellers are not created equal and sharing this kind of info could help others spend significant amounts of cash!
I would assume that there are copyright holders to the performances on these so-called "safety copies". Conjecture; The record companies involved in producing and mastering the recordings in the first place. EMI, DGG, Decca, Vanguard, RCA, and the rest. When another label wants to produce a record of a Decca recording, for instance, I'd assume that there must be some contractual agreement between the copyright holder and the interested party. Stuff like that.
Even when the digital era first came upon us and some record firms may have been tempted to dump their old tapes, I presume that the copyright laws are still in effect with these copies of tape masters, even when the copyright holder tosses these tapes into the trash. Without some sort of legal device, I'd assume that the "safety copies", if they are in fact genuine, are to be regarded as pirate copies.
Other thoughts; Stories..... are in circulation about the proverbial recording engineer that will, for a nominal fee, go grab a tape master from the vaults and dupe a few copies of it for serious audiophiles willing to pay hard cash... just stories, I'm sure.
Other thoughts 2: agree about the provenance issues. Without some certifiable evidence as to the authenticity of a tape safety copy,.....
Other thoughts 3: even if the "safety copy" is not a genuine dupe of a master, but a copy of something less, there still seems to be issues of piracy without some legal document indicating otherwise.
Just thinking out loud.
Otherwise, a master dupe sure would be a lovely thing to have on hand.
-Steve
"Other thoughts 2: agree about the provenance issues. Without some certifiable evidence as to the authenticity of a tape safety copy,.....
Other thoughts 3: even if the "safety copy" is not a genuine dupe of a master, but a copy of something less, there still seems to be issues of piracy without some legal document indicating otherwise."
***
First of all, there's ASCAP and BMI. Secondly, there are agencies such as Harry Fox and Naxos. But seriously, you're making much ado about nothing, with regard to copyright issues. A single copy of a recording isn't even on the radar of the interested parties.
Record companies have other things to think about.
As you correctly pointed out, there is no provenance.
:)
And while we wait for the answer, tell us: how good are those Doc Schmalle tapes?
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
They have the best sound of any media that the general public can hear.
I've never felt more connected to the performers and to the emotion of the music.
I am about the biggest fan of these tapes you could find.
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