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In Reply to: RE: A few Listening Sessions posted by ironbut on April 26, 2009 at 10:48:48
I was just at stellavox's place last week for a second session of comparisons of various decks and playback electronics. First off, I am an unabashed tube 'freak'. I was biased towards the tube deck from the start. I was shocked at the final results. The Cello did smoke all other decks and preamps during the test session. I am not sure about the cable/head interaction was ideal for the Bottlehead tape repro electronics, as I have heard them sound absolutely STELLAR at Doc's place with the Nagra head on his T-Audio deck. Remember, the tape repro was tested on the same Nortronics head as the Cello tape preamp with the same cables.
There is more than one way to 'skin a cat' in the tape playback/vinyl playback departments. One of the best I ever heard was a Paul Weitzel modded Scully LJ-14 with basic nortronics play head and re-worked scully 280 Germanium preamps. It destroyed a re-worked ATR from Mike Spitz. The owner was a ultra high end manufacturer of speakers and his system was one of the best I've ever heard.
Needless to say, I am even more of a fan of Cello now than I ever was. I am even thinking of setting up a small shrine in my studio to Tom Colangelo and Mark Levinson :-)
The remote Palette equalizer was also a revelation. A must IMO for music lovers, as opposed to audiophiles.
Rich in Portland
Follow Ups:
In fact, I liked his enough to buy one just like it. Of course mine has been back a dozen times in the past 10 years for "updates".
Just so you know, the Piedmont unit was one of Paul's very first modified Scullys, done well over 10 years ago. His mods have greatly improved since then.
Night and day changes.
You should hear what he has done for my 3M M-56 ...
I heard it about 6 years ago and was dumbfounded to hear how incredible it sounded. This was with the plain Jane Nortronics head. The modded 3M machine must be to die for...
rich
"I am not sure about the cable/head interaction was ideal for the Bottlehead tape repro electronics, as I have heard them sound absolutely STELLAR at Doc's place with the Nagra head on his T-Audio deck."
Thanks for the kind words, Rich. As I understand it Charlie went in and made some changes to the Repro that we did not recommend. We work with specific stock heads and ask Greg Orton to make custom heads that work with our particular requirements.
It's perhaps interesting to note that our tape setup has been part of a system that got best sound of show at CES from TAS reviewers with the same speaker manufacturer you mention. That our products are considered the standard of comparison is quite flattering.
Hi Doc,
I had mentioned to Rich that based on his noting problems in the Repro's bass and dynamics, there might be an cable interaction going on between the BH Repro and Charles' Cello preamplifier. As I remember, the Repro had a higher than ordinary output impedance and if there's a long cable run/high cable impedance, certainly bass extension and dynamics can suffer.
I know Rich heard my system the day before and not sure if he noted the same issues (I would think he'd at least hear the dynamics since the ML are more dynamic than the Quads.) with my Repro--that admittedly is souped up with the Teflon V-caps. I'm still not sure if there's any cable interactions in my system since am using Bill Low Signature AudioQuest interconnects right now between the tape deck and Repro and Repro and preamp. There's no question that the cable length between the tape deck and Repro could be shorter! (though just received the two versions of Cardas cables to try eg. a short 24 inch length between the tape deck and Repro and a balanced to single ended cable between the Repro and the cj ART III.)
Myles
The output impedance of the Tube Repro is 500 ohms at the balanced transformer output. It can easily drive cables in the tens of feet and maybe hundreds. The single ended output does have a higher output impedance, 4K ohms.
Hi Doc,
I must have been thinking of the SE output since that's what I'm using at the moment.
Myles
As Rich mentioned, the input impedance to the Pallette Pre is a Meg or two - I'm using Alpha core silver from the tape pre's to the Palette. On doc's pre we listened thru the low impedance output. On my own I did try quickly switching between that and the high impedance output (after compensating for the gain reduction. Didn't notice any change in sound" quality"
Charles
I did not hear any issues with the Technics/Tape Repro at Myles' place the day before going to Charlie's. The sound was quite dynamic and transparent there and nowhere near as muddy as at Charlie's. The input impedance is 1 megohm on the Cello. I think the only fair way to compare is to have a complete TP system, with an extended frequency response head in a fully done up 1500 or Otari.
The sound is truly spectacular at Stellavox's place now. The only other time I've heard quads sound this good were at VSAC 6 years ago with Wolcott 220s driving them.
Rich in Portland
One important thing to keep in mind here and one thing I suffer from is lack of auditory memory. In my "experimentation" I've tried to change as little as possible, then "A/B" just that change a few times in succession to hopefully be able to fully "process" any differences.
When we were initially listening between the Bottlehead and the Cello (Cello was up first), it took twp "rounds" of switching before the differences became clear - and "unmisteakable" (to me anyway). And I totally agree that auditioning a whole (tuned???) front end is the way to go - HOWEVER if there are overall differences then you have to be able to dig deeper to differentiate where they are being introduced (head / cabling / preamplification electronics?)
CHarles
I did a good bit of experimenting around with cables/tubes on my Technics (stock heads) and Repro and for me at least, they really make or break the system. I think part of it is the amount of very low level information contained in tapes. I have to admit that I'm not very scientific in my tweaks and if I can't hear a difference from day to day, I don't consider the difference to be significant and I go for the cheapest one. It took me over a year of fooling around with this or that before I've settled on what I have today. (he says just moments after rolling another tube)
That said, I have a lot of respect for good solid state equipment. It just isn't what I prefer to listen to in the long run. Some of the cables and tubes that I've tried have yielded better absolute resolution but they tend to carry a price in my enjoyment of the experience( it leaves me thinking about the sound rather than the music). But that's just me. I can easily understand why someone else would prefer to have a more detailed sound, especially so early in the signal chain.
I think that we're just in the infancy of this reel to reel revival. I welcome any avenues to eek out the next bit of goodness that is still hidden in a great tape whether it's old or new. But for the here and now,.. man! Am I pleased with what I've got!
We are considering supporting tape EQ with the Wavestream Kinetics Archival Phono Stage. Although designed as a phono stage, you will see that it is a completely "open platform" which can support custom input loading and custom EQ cards. We are still in the early stages of matching up PB head, cables and preamp, as well as designing proper EQ cards that allow calibration of the EQ when using a calibration tape.
I'll keep folks posted...
Eric
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