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In Reply to: RE: Many folks don't hear the effect posted by sberger on March 10, 2021 at 08:54:21
buy and sell stuff regularly to experiment with what's available and discover what works best. Every choice involves compromises to an extent.
It would drive me nuts to be as sensitive to speakers/gear faults.
BTW, I spend lots of time listening to a pair of modified New Advents in the garage. They are somewhat tonally colored and the top octave is both rolled off and not as transparent as those with nice dome tweeters. Their sins, however, are largely that of omission.
Follow Ups:
I do like to buy(and sometimes sell) stuff.
BTW you indicated that "... current versions corrected that anomaly"
Which versions are your referring to?
Which versions are your referring to?While recently discontinued, the LSR6332 used similarly sized drivers with much lower xover points.
They now have a range of smaller monitors using 5" midrange/woofers and cross them at 1.9 kHZ.
Floyd Toole was all about consistent directivity even if his predecessors like Bart Locanthi were not.
edit: I was in the middle of answering your next question!
The short answer is you want the sound to appear that its coming from a single speaker as opposed to a collection of parts. That's the beauty of full range designs. One pebble in the pond.
Multi-way speakers present a challenge in that each driver has its own specific range based upon its size where apparent width is the same. Pushing a driver an octave higher than its ideal range causes a discontinuity that can be heard. One voice in the choir is not singing like the others.
I'll conclude with a visual called a directivity graph. Ideally, it would appear to have the same color from the left (low frequencies) to the right (high frequencies). In reality, even good speakers might look like this:
Wider at the bottom but pretty consistent as you move up the spectrum. What you don't want are decided "notches" where stage width shrinks at certain frequencies then gets wider up the spectrum! Note the gradually narrowing pattern in the upper midrange (where most instruments and voice live) only to get wider again starting around 5 kHZ where a tweeter kicks in. This is what's happening with the JBL.
A piano or voice should have the same apparent width regardless of frequency. Not get choked down in some parts of its range.
Edits: 03/10/21
. . . cross too high from the mid to the tweeter, and hence exhibit dips in the off-axis response in the crossover region. Even expensive, well-regarded models. Many of them also have too much distance between the acoustic centers of the drivers (greater than one wavelength at crossover frequency), exacerbating the problem. They don't even pretend to follow Toole rules.
And yet, lots of people love and enjoy their imperfect speakers. With proper toe-in toward the listening sweet spot, good distance from reflective side walls, and maybe some absorbtive/diffusive treatment on those walls, the hole in the off-axis response is not notable enough to be bothersome. Perfectionists like you and me will hear it, but most people won't.
To avoid the problem, particularly with larger diameter midrange drivers (which have their own sets of advantages and drawbacks), you need to use a ROBUST tweeter (Fs below 800Hz, high rated power handling) and cross it LOW -- not much more than an octave above Fs. Also, get the driver centers as close together as possible on the baffle. Truncated frame drivers are useful for this purpose.
Coaxial drivers, which I have not experimented with, probably offer the best solution to aligning acoustic centers, but probably introduce other compromises unique to them.
...cross too high from the mid to the tweeter
In days past, I would agree. Not, however, with modern designs. I think this is largely due to power limitations with vintage tweeters. Harry Pearson fried a number of Advent tweeters using a Phase Linear 700 during his double Advent review. Result? The later New Advent raised the crossover from 1k to 1.5k and ferro-fluid cooled the tweeter. I've been using a 300 watt/channel amp with my pair in the garage system for years. :)
And yet, lots of people love and enjoy their imperfect speakers
Not everyone is sensitive to a lack of coherency.
"And yet, lots of people love and enjoy their imperfect speakers. With proper toe-in toward the listening sweet spot, good distance from reflective side walls, and maybe some absorbtive/diffusive treatment on those walls, the hole in the off-axis response is not notable enough to be bothersome. Perfectionists like you and me will hear it, but most people won't."
Exactly how I have managed the issue, which is certainly noticeable before making some of the adjustments you have indicated. But my listening area is fairly modest. I sit/listen more or less in the same spot, so arranging the speakers to get pretty good imaging hasn't been difficult.
And bottom line, they are very enjoyable speakers to listen to. They mate beautifully with my big McIntosh amp, and pretty much everything sounds good whether soft or on the fairly rare occasions that I want to turn it up to levels that I normally won't listen at.
But my listening area is fairly modest. I sit/listen more or less in the same spot, so arranging the speakers to get pretty good imaging hasn't been difficult.
That doesn't address the challenge. It's not about providing a wider sweet spot. What I hear is a weird frequency dependent stage width sitting equally between the two speakers.
An hourglass shaped perspective. Not what you hear in the real world.
Responding to your deleted post, enjoy your shiny new toy. AB with your ARs and I think you'll better appreciate the odd presentation.
You're right. I can't hear what you're referring to.
I have done some comparing, and for now I'm listening to the JBL's a lot more then the 3's, which is surprising to me given what a huge AR enthusiast I've been over the years. I still love them, but the JBL's aren't as brash or difficult to listen to as I fully expected them to be. I still chalk it up to what's going into them...perhaps a lesser amp might deliver a sound that was more grating. I don't know.
perhaps a lesser amp might deliver a sound that was more grating. I don't know.has nothing to do with the amplifier.
And what I hear is not *grating* - just unnatural in its presentation. Some instruments are rendered like fun mirrors.
Edits: 03/12/21
I'm not suggesting that what you're referring to is a grating sound. I was talking about what OTHER issues OTHER folks have had with these speakers, one of them being the overly bright tweeter. I was suggesting that a decent amp might be helping with the overall quality that I'm getting into my ears.
I understand what you hear, even though I can't hear it. Or maybe I can hear it, but don't realize it. That picture is fun, and I'll give you that I have never seen or heard anybody describe what they hear using that comparison. It bears no recognizable resemblance whatsoever to what I am hearing, but it's fun nonetheless.
In any event, time to move on. Appreciate your input.
I was talking about what OTHER issues OTHER folks have had with these speakers, one of them being the overly bright tweeter.
Many JBLs like the 4311 do exhibit the boom-sizzle "West Coast" sound but I find the brightness has to do with the lower treble. Other models like the L110 are quite neutral in response if not possessing the directivity challenge.
Enjoy the ride!
Can you include a few of graphs of a typical electrostatic say 15 and 30 degrees off axis?
At a show back in the early 90s I met Dr. West. He was playing a reel to reel of Ben Webster Live At The Renaissance. While his speakers sounded killer dead on axis, anything to the side of a very thin seating position the soundstage collapsed. I'd have to say go with a set of Stax headphones before an 8 foot tall and 4 foot wide speaker with a very low low WAF. At a show about 10 years ago there was a set that was like 9 feet tall and 5 feet wide. They were huge. There were 3 seating, make that standing, positions. There was rope keeping people where they needed to be. So much for sitting next to my honey while listening.
Can you include a few of graphs of a typical electrostatic say 15 and 30 degrees off axis?I'm not aware of any.
At a show about 10 years ago there was a set that was like 9 feet tall and 5 feet wide
Most likely the 945 - nine foot tall with a 45 degree radiation angle. Mine would now be called the 790 - seven foot tall with a 90 degree radiation angle. The facets are spaced at larger angles for better off axis response.
What I marvel about mine is that the sound field changes comparatively little as you move around my dedicated room. In front, behind, sitting, standing, up close or at a distance. Several years ago, I made a phone video to contribute to a thread on another website. I was asked where the microphone was placed - it went with me as walked around.
Video located here .
Wifey is more the videophile and enjoys the 1+1s and Magnepan MC1 surrounds in the family room. ;)
Edits: 03/11/21
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