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In Reply to: RE: Quite depressing posted by Bill the K on February 24, 2021 at 23:04:52
my little Tivoli radio sounds so very good outclassing several highly touted bookshelves. Henry Kloss (bless his soul) knew something that other designers did not. The little 3 inch driver outperforms my regular speakers. I play the sources thru Aux. I place it vertically. Even the FM is quite good.
I am thinking of getting a very good 3 inch full range (not the right term but good enough) and building a well designed cabinet. Perhaps it will be musical like the radio and better than bigger ones.
Bill
Follow Ups:
Keep dreaming, smoking, or whatever makes you less angry. I have some Bose cube garbage you may like.
Allow me to play devil's advocate and indulge this 3" driver thing.It's a single driver.
You can't get less crossover than a single driver with no crossover. You're connecting the amplifier output state directly to the speaker terminals. People spend $25,000 on a pair of Neo-magnet 8" fullrange drivers. They then connect the amplifier output stage directly to the speaker terminals. Bliss ensues.
But every "fullrange" speakers has, in effect, two "crossovers" (or filters) associated with it - not electrical per se, but mechanical. The first is the low end rolloff and the the second is the high-end rolloff.
A full range speaker is actually a band-pass device. It can't do 20Hz well any more than it can do 20kHz well. And by well, well, I mean well.
So does a 3" speaker in a clock radio trump a 3-way with an exhaustively designer crossover and cabinet? If you're a single-driver officionado, you might actually say yes.
And that is all I have to say about that...
Cheers,
Presto
Edits: 02/27/21 02/27/21
that would fall apart rather quickly in a blind listening test. A 3" driver cannot do bass, cannot do midbass, can do midrange and lower range treble but cannot do upper range treble, especially those stuck in a clock radio. Its purely sight bias and has nothing to do with actual quality of sound.
I was saying that a full-range speaker is governed by the laws of physics, making it a glorified midrange driver with a high and low pass filter built into it, inherently. (Mechanically).
Freaky whizzer cone breakup to get "up to 20khz" notwithstanding...
Cheers,
Presto
I understand that mechanical limitations makes it sound like a glorified midrange driver but the quality of midrange also sucks. If one prefers that sound, Im saying that the only reason why that sound is because of sight bias and not because it actually sounds better.
Edits: 03/07/21
Turns out I was just being sarcastic that day.
But I did not suggest that a clock radio speaker would "do midrange well" - I merely poked fun at single-driver aficionados who would make note that it's a single driver connected to an amplifiers terminals.
Cheers,
Presto
Thanks for that comforting post. I made a pair of 7x 11 cabinets for 5 inch Dayton Audio full range drivers bought on sale for $40. I am somewhat proud of the sound. This started me thinking on going for high quality drivers, perhaps costing up to $200. I gave up that plan when I saw the Zaph SR71 drivers for around $400 which is loved by audiophiles.Then the idea occured to get one driver of very high quality for $400. My friends cannot accept the idea of going back to mono. So the dilemma. Decisions! Also this lock down and such. Afraid of vaccination too.
Cheers
Bill
of both Moderna and Pfizer. We are all feeling great , and I am the only one who had a slight fever and nausea for one day only. That is a normal reaction of the immune system, which is a little more sensitive in me who has had hives in the past. I wouldn't be nervous about it.
Once a large majority of us get the shot, the sooner this virus will be subdued and we and the economy get back to normal.
And like I said, I love my stock Tivoli. I even have the original KLH, but it needs restoration before I can compare.
Ah, how I loved the KLH radio playing WNEW of NYC. I still can hear the Byrds singing Turn turn. Tivoli has the family traits.
Cheers
Bill
"Turn, Turn, Turn" by the Byrds used to give me goose bumps in my folk rock days. Eveyone on this site is so different in their "goose bump" recordings.
The sound of the Tivoli is outstanding as you say. Also my Yamaha computer speakers have excellent tone and imaging, as the speaker cones are made from paper from maple trees if I recall. All the other computer speakers I tried sounded tinny and artificial, and they all had metal or plastic cones. The Yamahas are bass limited of course, but the small room makes up for that. I have since purchased a small Yamaha, powered, woofer to add some bass.
Even and coherent tonal balance is very important ! But sometimes, our "audiophile inclinations" lead us to set up our speakers for best soundstaging/imaging at the expense of good, old-fashioned tonal balance.
Back in the early days of stereo recording, Speaker Designer Winslow Burhoe at first resisted stereophonic reproduction. As I understand it, this was on the basis that the tonal balance of speaker systems was being negatively affected by the new craze for stereophonic soundstaging. As people started moving their speakers away from room boundaries in order to enhance soundstaging/imaging, proper tonal balance often took a dive.
It took a little while before speaker designers who were used to creating speakers for mono reproduction to figure out how to make make speakers that sounded tonally correct and spatially correct at the same time.
To cap this off, let us remember that proper speaker positioning is one of the primary keys to a satisfying listening experience in stereo. And I do wonder if you should probably be spending more time in consideration of speaker setup and room tuning.
It is possible to have a stereo system that sounds tonally correct and soundstages well at the same time, but that goal might take some real effort on your part before it is realized.
I am not too keen on soundstaging. I simply do not like the holograhic imaging some reviewers rave about. I remember one PSB speaker which frightened me with the ghostly sound. A nice big Mono would do me fine like the Sam Goody guys at Paramus NJ once played, a big huge Tannoy Westminster that they played in mono. Lovely sound. CSN&Y never sounded better, not even live at MSG, NYC.
Cheers
Bill
and I get that. But what I don't understand is how you can possibly think that a clock radio speaker has better tone when the speaker in the radio cannot come close to covering all the frequencies that even a 2 way design can.
To me mono sound looses so much of the information that gives music its life like presence. Its like listening to sound through a heavy drape.
This is something we'll never agree on but in the end I respect its what you like.
Easy to chew and swallow, sure. But not the most nutritious stuff either.
Yeah, not the tastiest either but affordable. Not asking for caviar, only bacon.
Cheers
Bill
.
You can make the Tivoli even better if you want to.
First, visit your favorite fishing pole building supply store. Buy three of these, or something like them:
https://corkspecialties.net/product/cork-ring-1-1-4-1-2-aa-grade/
These are the new "feet" for your radio. Better than standing the radio on its side, I found.
Then, visit your favorite craft supply store. Buy one of these, or something like it. Color doesn't matter, at least as far as I can tell:
https://www.michaels.com/1.5in-hot-color-pom-poms-by-creatology/10183818.html
Stuff the pompom into the port on the underside of the radio. This will slightly dampen the bass response so that it isn't so bloated. Adjust to taste.
(Of course, eBay has zillions of both of these for sale.)
That's it! This improved an already great sound to something better. At least for me. YMMV and all that jazz, of course. But, for the price I don't feel like you'll hate me forever if you don't like it.
Thanks for the suggestions. I place the Tivoli vertically with the speaker above the dial. I have stuck four feet underneath. The Port fires to the left. Port firing downward was indistinct. I wish there were a bigger Tivoli which played louder.
Cheers
Bill
Can't help you with louder, but I think my suggestions work on the indistinct part. That's exactly how I'd describe it - good word.
someone here may have a schematic. It will probably show a built in EQ section. That plus special design on the speakers = nice sound. Don't expect the speakers alone to have it.
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