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In Reply to: RE: Then... Wassup ....!! posted by RGA on July 02, 2017 at 23:12:01
The problem, there are so many holes in your reasons for why you argue for AN.Let's just consider one reason, resale value.
Not long ago there was such a demand for Harley Davidson motorcycles the waiting list was quite extensive, so much so when taking ownership you could literally walk out the door and sell the bike for double what you just paid. Harleys hold their resale value still today, does that make them a great motorcycle?
I have friends that refer to their Harley as "old leaker" due to the fact Harleys tend to leak oil. I ride a Honda, more reliable, faster, cheaper to purchase, etc etc., but the Harley will still hold its resale value better.
Is the Harley the better bike? Well if resale and cache value are high on your list then ya. If riding a motorcycle is your priority then the Honda is the better choice.
My point? I never consider resale value when making a purchase, either I like the item or I don't, what I can profit off the deal just isn't important, it's the music.
MartinAnd please don't think I don't like Harleys because I do, the reason mine looks so much like one, my brother rides one, I think they're great bikes, but their resale value has nothing to do with that.
Edits: 07/03/17 07/03/17Follow Ups:
Exactly Martin and I wholeheartedly agree with what you wrote. I know a lot of motorcycle guys who tell me that Harley isn't a particularly good motorcycle in any reliability arena. Other bikes perform better for less.
But as I said you provide more than one argument when you write those five paragraph essays in high school. The most important thing is to have your thesis at the end of the opening paragraph and that thesis statement generally contains your three best arguments FOR something. So if it were an essay as to why cats make better pets than dogs it would go something like this.
Cats make better pets than dogs because, cats can be left alone for longer periods of time, cats are less expensive, and lastly cats are easier to maintain.
Then you would write detailed reasons for each and how each combine with each other to make the case stronger. While also knocking down the case against.
So take the resale value case - well the fact that AN holds value in itself means little to nothing. It only means something if it has some context.
So if we have 10 objective motorcycle mechanics review a bunch of bikes and they conclude that the Harley is an unreliable mess but it looks cool and sounds cool then the experts are not really on board with this being a particularly good motorcycle. User experience will also factor in.
A lot of Solid State amplifier often move to Single Ended Triode amplifiers - they don't often go the other way.
So to me it is taking several different arguments and when you put them together you realize that the resale value isn't coming from awesome looking products or nostalgia for collecting.
Of course both of us could do research and explain why a Harley is a worse bike than XYZ but it probably won't stop the guy who loves them from loving them. Maybe they like continuously fixing them.
Me I tend to not like traveling on or in things without a roll cage - but anyway.
I said "let's pick one reason", I could pick apart each and every reason you give that isn't "I just like them better", which is REALLY the only reason that matters.
Here's an example, of the many speakers I've owned I'll use two to help illustrate my point. Both armed with identical sized drivers and similar sized cabinets but with one costing almost five times the other.
First up is a Sony, not exactly a name with a ton of cache value by most in our hobby, but the SS-M3 and it's siblings are no joke, just read the glowing reviews. And if seen in person it's obvious a ton of money went into RD for these little babies, and once heard then you know it was money well spent.
Our second contender carries a name with tons of cache value, Infinity. But this little speaker is from the lowly RS line, the unassuming RS-325. In direct comparison to the Sony it looks like your basic run of the mill 6.5" two way. And adding insult to injury it's ported, something that usually has me looking somewhere else.
The Sonys are a bad ass little speaker, upon auditioning they blew me away with their full bodied sound. They were the little darlings of the reviewing world so I'm not the only one that felt this way.
I purchased the little Infinitys for my now deceased father in law and had them stored away. Although being from infinity the highly affordable RS line are not the darlings of the reviewing world, but these little babies really boogie.
In direct comparison playing music the Sonys now sounded flat with the little Infinitys kicking their butts. This really caught me off guard, I LIKE THE SONYS DAMN IT, but the music didn't lie. I had to admit my prejudices against ported designs was just that, these mothers get my toes tapping.
Moral of the story, reviewers likes or dislikes are meaningless unless you like them too, but it's not proof the reviewers choice is the better one. And definitely not something to use as a club in an attempt to prove a point.
Pictures above of the two combatants.
Martin
Like I say it winds up boiling down to one's individual tastes - that said most people don't just go by individual tastes - if they did there would be no review magazines and no one bothering to do measurements or to use them as clubs.
Subconsciously or not people read reviews and they read measurements, thus all those readers are putting stock into the reviewer opinions and/or measurements.
Not everyone but enough of them to keep the magazines in business.
Hence why we fall back to the clubs. Defensive clubs more than offensive ones I might add. I don't use the club to tell you you should buy X but to say that well a lot of other people like X - it's okay to admit that X is a fine product but that X is simply not your cup of tea.
I don't see why certain people can't accept that. It's not even to the level they are admitting they are wrong. Brussels Sprouts are hugely healthy and I can't stand them. But I am not going to go on forums and tell people they are wrong to like this vegetable. Now if someone tries to tell me that Brussels Sprouts tastes better than hand made Belgium chocolate well then we start to enter this same argument with reviews and graphs and statistics and sales etc.
Lastly, when picking apart an argument - the arguments picking apart the initial thesis can also be picked apart for their quality of rebuttal.
I am not one that just thinks everything is equal and it's all a matter of taste mind you - which is why I engage in these debates. Back in the middle 1990s I would argue Brand A and B are better than C - and we fast forward to today and I wouldn't touch brand A and B with a 50 foot pole. Part of this changes with time and the more I audition. What I once thought sounded good only sounded good against limited options. When more serious contenders enter the field perhaps you will like something three years from now and you will say to yourself wow how did I like Infinity or Sony. That applies to me too. We don't know what future experiences have in store for us.
You're other problem, you assume to much. You're assuming I haven't heard much better speakers, or owned much better speakers. Assuming might be the wrong word, selective reading, poor comprehensive reading skills, whatever the reason only you know.The above speakers are obviously only examples of similar sized speakers for reference, I said as much, would you rather I choose other examples? Much more expensive examples? Would it make any difference with you?
As for your "assumption" the Sonys might have just been long in the tooth for me in comparison to the Infinitys and this somehow biased my opinion, the Sonys were the much more recent purchase, albeit some two decades ago, and long since gifted to my nephew.
Keep on digging that hole.
Martin
Edits: 07/04/17 07/04/17 07/04/17
"You're assuming I haven't heard much better speakers, or owned much better speakers."
I assumed no such thing. You are making the mistake of projecting what you think I am saying when I have said no such thing. No one person can hear every product on the market nor can they hear them all in ideal circumstances - Audio Shows are TERRIBLE places to evaluate the sound of audio equipment and yet most people including reviewers base much of their opinions on show results.
Dealers can be much better but then it depends on the dealer.
What I mean by experience is that in the future you may hear something you have never heard before. And the "new" item may very well displace what you like now.
It doesn't matter if you have heard 5 speakers or 500. The new to you speaker may still make you rethink your speakers.
I have just reviewed an $800 push pull amp that made me rethink what can be done with relatively inexpensive amps and from push pull.
You never know what can come along and surprise you.
My latest surprise and review is the little KingKo amp
"When more serious contenders enter the field" perhaps you will like something three years from now and you will say to yourself wow how did I like "Infinity or Sony".Your words are they not? As I said, you assume I haven't heard or owned "more serious contenders".
No sense conversing with someone that denies their own words, do you even read what you post?
Martin
If you get off your high horse you might actually have something worth saying, until then I'm moving on.
Edits: 07/05/17
I am not a mind reader.
This is what you wrote "But this little speaker is from the lowly RS line."
I looked it up - it's around 30 years old and you called it lowly. They use push pin clip speaker connectors and go for around $125-$150. Infinity as a brand isn't the same as it was either.
If that's all you're taking away from my posts then you are certainly just choosing to troll since these two speakers aren't even the main point.
I'm not put out if you put me on your ignore list.
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