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In Reply to: RE: Then... posted by RGA on June 29, 2017 at 19:03:57
More Irony .....
Follow Ups:
Since you follow me from forum to forum replying to most of my threads, I must have gotten under your skin. So please before I get you too irritated I recommend for your blood pressure that you put me on your ignore list. I won't be able to agitate you anymore.
Hope you enjoy your system and have a great day.
Follow you around ..! Hallucinate much ..? ..... LMAOYou may or may not one day become a good reviewer , well , if you could ever get past your current limited level of understanding, maybe if you did an apprenticeship with a seasoned reviewer , like Mikey Fremer or even Brad, Someone with a little SOTA exposure , system and setup knowledge , who could walk you through your current ideological minefield of doom..
As it is ,
very difficult taking you seriously as a reviewer , every discussion leads to the same Angry diatribe about an AN 2 way speaker superior to all and everything else is crap .. if you were really serious about being a reviewer you would actually get a proper listening room / space which would allow you to actual do worth while reviews of someone's product , as it is you would only be wasting someone's hard work , well unless, you are one off those given a copy of the review along with your 40-60% discount..
Regards
Edits: 06/30/17 06/30/17
Thank you for interesting reply. I do try to reply to those posters in need so point by point.1) Exposure to SOTA equipment. To which SOTA equipment should I avail myself to audition that I have missed? I recently had a reply from Kal Rubinson of Stereophile who noted that reviewers listen and evaluate gear at shows, friend's homes, dealers, and not JUST in their own homes. We can't hear everything in our own homes after all. Even Morricab has not had a full AN system in his own home - Thus if it is reasonable or unreasonable for one it is reasonable or unreasonable for all.
I don't begrudge him not having heard an all AN system in his own house because I am not one to make excuses that you need to hear it in your own space to credibly critique it. The best you can do is to be as fair as possible to the gear by hearing it several times in several "different" environments with several different pieces of gear. Stereo equipment is supposed to be designed to operate in a variety of rooms not just the manufacturer's room or an an-echoic chamber.
Morricab claims to have done this. He has heard AN at shows more than once and at friends' houses and he doesn't like them. I am not trying to convince him to like them - no one can like everything.
2)"diatribe about an AN 2 way speaker superior to all and everything else is crap."
I go down this route a lot because I have had many posters on many forums go at me about this speaker and then I get posts where someone says wow thanks Richard you were right - just didn't hear it until the 5th time.
Morricab should know a poster here called the OldSchool who continually blasted me for recommending AN and telling me that he heard them at a show and they sucked - no treble - coloured blah blah blah. For years! Remind you of anyone (ahem Morricab).Then the Old School brought his own records (which is critical) and played them at CAS. This is what Old School Said About AN when he didn't like the AN E at all at several shows:
"IMO, the Audio Notes are full, warm, but far too polite. Everything sounds the same via them, vinyl or digital: smooth, full, relaxed. They thus flunk the "sounds different with different sources" test. The Quads are not nearly as smooth as the ANs, but vastly clearer, and more detailed. What the Quads lack is low bass and impact or force. The Teresonics are a different animal altogether. When I went from the AN room to the Teresonic room (which were right next to each other at the CAS), I was shocked at how different these systems sounded. While the ANs were always polite, the Teresonics could come alive when the source was excellent. Voices, brass, bass, everything just seemed to "be in the room." IMO, the ANs are, ultimately, boring, and the Teresonics are thrilling."
http://www.dagogo.com/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o96-loudspeaker-review-part-3The above criticism is the exact same thing that Morricab writes as critique on these AN speakers. It's SPOOKY how similar the wording is and the fact that like Odeon - Teresonic is a very high sensitive loudspeaker over 100dB sensitive. Umm and I heard the same thing at CAS 2012. I did not choose AN as best sound of show (which nullifies your theory) and in fact they didn't make my top ten. I chose YG Acoustics, MBL, Acoustic Zen, Focal, and Von Gaylord. So there goes your conspiracy theory that it's always AN and everything else is crap.
That said - when AN came together properly under Warren Jarret setting up the room (don't assume that a "buddy" has set them up properly).
The Old School posted this:
"I heard the Triangle Art, Music First, and Audio Note setup at a recent CAS, and the vast improvement of the Audio Note speakers was stunning, compared to all the other setups I have heard. Whereas previous Audio Note systems failed when they were playing my reference vinyl records, the Music First combination was as good as anything I have ever heard at a dealer or a show. Correction: it was far, far better than anything I have heard, aside from my own system. The sound was liquid, fast, coherent, rich and HUGE. Plus, no annoying "sweet spot" that most speakers have. Here the system loaded the whole room, and the sound was fabulous anywhere in the room. On my fantastic Chet Baker vinyl, the trumpet and Pepper Adams's sax were in the room! No compression whatsoever. 40 db plus dynamics (from 65 to over 105) . This was using the Audio Note 2a3 amp. Male and female voices were tonally correct with the unlimited dynamics."
http://www.dagogo.com/audio-note-uk-elx-hemp-loudspeaker-reviewSo yes I am happy to engage about these speakers and I am patient - because Several people who utterly hated the AN E have come around to a polar opposite opinion. Incidentally way back on Audioreview I hated the speakers too!
My diatribes are not angry - they are heavily explanatory and wordy. (Pretty good for a three finger typist).
3)Listening space - What is the problem with my listening space? Large speakers are designed for large rooms - small speakers for small rooms. A small speaker in a large room often sounds horrible and vice-versa. I am merely limited the smaller speakers in a manufacturer's line-up. The Focal Diablo Utopia not the Grand Utopia.
Edits: 07/01/17
RGA, you must be a glutton for punishment lol.
It's somewhat the nature of these discussions. How does one really argue for or against a subjective opinion?
If I say XYZ is the best sound I have heard it is somewaht similar to tje essays I wrote in university. You state an opinion on a topic and it is not accepted unless you can bring in evidence to support your case. Usually, that comes from external, authority, statistics, primary sources, secondary sources.
So that is largely all that can be done on audio. No one can replace another person's primary experience. The only thing that can ve done is to say well XYZ is ecellent because of: appeal to authorities, statistical results, etc etc.
So when XYZ has say 15 authorities, and secondary and tertiary evidence that make a very strong case while ABC has no authorities or evidence to suggest it is a strong product then this is really all we have in audio discourse.
It's an experiential thing which words can't replace. You can read about swimming in the ocean all you want but actually doing it is something entirely different.
The problem, there are so many holes in your reasons for why you argue for AN.Let's just consider one reason, resale value.
Not long ago there was such a demand for Harley Davidson motorcycles the waiting list was quite extensive, so much so when taking ownership you could literally walk out the door and sell the bike for double what you just paid. Harleys hold their resale value still today, does that make them a great motorcycle?
I have friends that refer to their Harley as "old leaker" due to the fact Harleys tend to leak oil. I ride a Honda, more reliable, faster, cheaper to purchase, etc etc., but the Harley will still hold its resale value better.
Is the Harley the better bike? Well if resale and cache value are high on your list then ya. If riding a motorcycle is your priority then the Honda is the better choice.
My point? I never consider resale value when making a purchase, either I like the item or I don't, what I can profit off the deal just isn't important, it's the music.
MartinAnd please don't think I don't like Harleys because I do, the reason mine looks so much like one, my brother rides one, I think they're great bikes, but their resale value has nothing to do with that.
Edits: 07/03/17 07/03/17
Exactly Martin and I wholeheartedly agree with what you wrote. I know a lot of motorcycle guys who tell me that Harley isn't a particularly good motorcycle in any reliability arena. Other bikes perform better for less.
But as I said you provide more than one argument when you write those five paragraph essays in high school. The most important thing is to have your thesis at the end of the opening paragraph and that thesis statement generally contains your three best arguments FOR something. So if it were an essay as to why cats make better pets than dogs it would go something like this.
Cats make better pets than dogs because, cats can be left alone for longer periods of time, cats are less expensive, and lastly cats are easier to maintain.
Then you would write detailed reasons for each and how each combine with each other to make the case stronger. While also knocking down the case against.
So take the resale value case - well the fact that AN holds value in itself means little to nothing. It only means something if it has some context.
So if we have 10 objective motorcycle mechanics review a bunch of bikes and they conclude that the Harley is an unreliable mess but it looks cool and sounds cool then the experts are not really on board with this being a particularly good motorcycle. User experience will also factor in.
A lot of Solid State amplifier often move to Single Ended Triode amplifiers - they don't often go the other way.
So to me it is taking several different arguments and when you put them together you realize that the resale value isn't coming from awesome looking products or nostalgia for collecting.
Of course both of us could do research and explain why a Harley is a worse bike than XYZ but it probably won't stop the guy who loves them from loving them. Maybe they like continuously fixing them.
Me I tend to not like traveling on or in things without a roll cage - but anyway.
I said "let's pick one reason", I could pick apart each and every reason you give that isn't "I just like them better", which is REALLY the only reason that matters.
Here's an example, of the many speakers I've owned I'll use two to help illustrate my point. Both armed with identical sized drivers and similar sized cabinets but with one costing almost five times the other.
First up is a Sony, not exactly a name with a ton of cache value by most in our hobby, but the SS-M3 and it's siblings are no joke, just read the glowing reviews. And if seen in person it's obvious a ton of money went into RD for these little babies, and once heard then you know it was money well spent.
Our second contender carries a name with tons of cache value, Infinity. But this little speaker is from the lowly RS line, the unassuming RS-325. In direct comparison to the Sony it looks like your basic run of the mill 6.5" two way. And adding insult to injury it's ported, something that usually has me looking somewhere else.
The Sonys are a bad ass little speaker, upon auditioning they blew me away with their full bodied sound. They were the little darlings of the reviewing world so I'm not the only one that felt this way.
I purchased the little Infinitys for my now deceased father in law and had them stored away. Although being from infinity the highly affordable RS line are not the darlings of the reviewing world, but these little babies really boogie.
In direct comparison playing music the Sonys now sounded flat with the little Infinitys kicking their butts. This really caught me off guard, I LIKE THE SONYS DAMN IT, but the music didn't lie. I had to admit my prejudices against ported designs was just that, these mothers get my toes tapping.
Moral of the story, reviewers likes or dislikes are meaningless unless you like them too, but it's not proof the reviewers choice is the better one. And definitely not something to use as a club in an attempt to prove a point.
Pictures above of the two combatants.
Martin
Like I say it winds up boiling down to one's individual tastes - that said most people don't just go by individual tastes - if they did there would be no review magazines and no one bothering to do measurements or to use them as clubs.
Subconsciously or not people read reviews and they read measurements, thus all those readers are putting stock into the reviewer opinions and/or measurements.
Not everyone but enough of them to keep the magazines in business.
Hence why we fall back to the clubs. Defensive clubs more than offensive ones I might add. I don't use the club to tell you you should buy X but to say that well a lot of other people like X - it's okay to admit that X is a fine product but that X is simply not your cup of tea.
I don't see why certain people can't accept that. It's not even to the level they are admitting they are wrong. Brussels Sprouts are hugely healthy and I can't stand them. But I am not going to go on forums and tell people they are wrong to like this vegetable. Now if someone tries to tell me that Brussels Sprouts tastes better than hand made Belgium chocolate well then we start to enter this same argument with reviews and graphs and statistics and sales etc.
Lastly, when picking apart an argument - the arguments picking apart the initial thesis can also be picked apart for their quality of rebuttal.
I am not one that just thinks everything is equal and it's all a matter of taste mind you - which is why I engage in these debates. Back in the middle 1990s I would argue Brand A and B are better than C - and we fast forward to today and I wouldn't touch brand A and B with a 50 foot pole. Part of this changes with time and the more I audition. What I once thought sounded good only sounded good against limited options. When more serious contenders enter the field perhaps you will like something three years from now and you will say to yourself wow how did I like Infinity or Sony. That applies to me too. We don't know what future experiences have in store for us.
You're other problem, you assume to much. You're assuming I haven't heard much better speakers, or owned much better speakers. Assuming might be the wrong word, selective reading, poor comprehensive reading skills, whatever the reason only you know.The above speakers are obviously only examples of similar sized speakers for reference, I said as much, would you rather I choose other examples? Much more expensive examples? Would it make any difference with you?
As for your "assumption" the Sonys might have just been long in the tooth for me in comparison to the Infinitys and this somehow biased my opinion, the Sonys were the much more recent purchase, albeit some two decades ago, and long since gifted to my nephew.
Keep on digging that hole.
Martin
Edits: 07/04/17 07/04/17 07/04/17
"You're assuming I haven't heard much better speakers, or owned much better speakers."
I assumed no such thing. You are making the mistake of projecting what you think I am saying when I have said no such thing. No one person can hear every product on the market nor can they hear them all in ideal circumstances - Audio Shows are TERRIBLE places to evaluate the sound of audio equipment and yet most people including reviewers base much of their opinions on show results.
Dealers can be much better but then it depends on the dealer.
What I mean by experience is that in the future you may hear something you have never heard before. And the "new" item may very well displace what you like now.
It doesn't matter if you have heard 5 speakers or 500. The new to you speaker may still make you rethink your speakers.
I have just reviewed an $800 push pull amp that made me rethink what can be done with relatively inexpensive amps and from push pull.
You never know what can come along and surprise you.
My latest surprise and review is the little KingKo amp
"When more serious contenders enter the field" perhaps you will like something three years from now and you will say to yourself wow how did I like "Infinity or Sony".Your words are they not? As I said, you assume I haven't heard or owned "more serious contenders".
No sense conversing with someone that denies their own words, do you even read what you post?
Martin
If you get off your high horse you might actually have something worth saying, until then I'm moving on.
Edits: 07/05/17
I am not a mind reader.
This is what you wrote "But this little speaker is from the lowly RS line."
I looked it up - it's around 30 years old and you called it lowly. They use push pin clip speaker connectors and go for around $125-$150. Infinity as a brand isn't the same as it was either.
If that's all you're taking away from my posts then you are certainly just choosing to troll since these two speakers aren't even the main point.
I'm not put out if you put me on your ignore list.
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