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In Reply to: RE: Those darn measurements ! posted by RGA on June 26, 2017 at 16:19:09
As I am well versed in science which was my initial area of study Biology/Psychology let's asses the hypothesis shall we?
Morricab and some others assessments
RGA drinks the AN Kool Aid - everything must be Audio Note - Audio Note is the best sound and nothing else is as good.
So let's test that theory as a good objective scientist.
We must note first that Audio Note makes over 700 products. So that's a lot of Kool-Aid - One would be a diabetic touting every single product.
First for the above hypotheses to hold merit we would have an individual that recommends only Audio Note on every forum.
Secondly, for the above hypotheses (RGA is a Kool Aid drinking shill) to hold RGA would thus presumably purchases only Audio Note (or at the very least would purchase an Audio Note against anything at the given price point). Thus if RGA auditions 10 amplifiers at $7,000 the amplifier RGA would always buy would be an Audio Note. Further, if RGA could only afford a $500 product and there is no Audio Note at $500 then that is the only time RGA would buy a non Audio Note product.
Thus a Kool Aid drinker buys the Kool Aid does he not and then touts it always and only.
So let's see if the above holds water.
A) I purchased the KEF LS-50 where instead I could have purchased the AZ Two or Three (because I would not have had to purchase stands).
B) I purchased a Line Magnetic CD player and their DAC - in both cases I could have purchased an Audio Note transport and DAC. The AN DAC is $400 less and the model up is about $100 more.
C) I purchased a $7,500 Line Magnetic 219IA integrated amplifier.
I could have purchased an OTO Sig, or SORO sig or Meishu (which is big and heavy too) for the same or less money.
Odd seems to me that anyone who lacks objectivity would always just automatically by an Audio Note product every single time he decided to buy an audio product.
Gee what can explain the above? And remember it's not about the money because the AN units if you keep em 10 years are likely to sell for at least what you paid (because the MARKET decides what has long lasting appeal). I manged to sell the LM 219IA for about 50% of what I paid for it. And the head repair and sales person (no longer there and thus no longer biased) noted that of all the 219IA amps sold I had the very best sounding one as it was the deluxe model using upgraded parts. Even that could not generate resale value. Great amp though.
Thirdly, RGA always recommends an Audio Note product for all posters asking for advice. For example, when a poster says he has a gymnasium sized rooms and needs 130dB - RGA will recommend an Audio Note. When someone is looking for a speaker for his boat - RGA will always recommend Audio Note. Regardless of practicality or desire - RGA will always recommend the same thing because he drank the Kool-Aid.
Interestingly, when someone asks for a speaker so he can play his loud heavy metal music at very loud levels because he wants crushing bass - and then someone who always recommends a Magnepan - recommends a Magnepan. I don't see you calling any of them out. Kool Aid?
So now let's test the theory that RGA only supports AN:
RGA owns Silver speaker cables and ICs and a modified AN ISIS power bar. Let's look at the cable forum for the last year and point to all the posts RGA has told anyone to buy an Audio Note cable. hmmm Cables are the biggest profit margin item in the audio industry so if one wanted to "help" the company one would be touting the crap out of cables not any of the other products. Let's show all the AN Cable touting posts. Crickets.... Strike one.
Moving over to the amplifier forums. Let's see all the times RGA has told someone looking for a 500 watt integrated amplifier to buy specifically an OTO or Meishu or SORO. hmm. At best my advice is about a different approach to a system like going to HE and SET (which both you and A Wayne support anyway and so I don't tout that approach any more or less than you two).
And in the vast majority of those cases I don't mention AN at all or I make a passing reference to my OTO in the context of the discussion not actually recommending the specific amp for purchase (or my then LM 219). Strike 2.
And let's be clear - AN amplifiers and Cables are designed and built by AN. This is their main product line along with the following.
AN DACs and CD players. Getting warmer. IME this has offered the best digital possibly due to the R2R and non oversampling and not using digital or analog filters. I recommend this a lot more BUT I still only recommend it when the person is in the price range AND looking for Redbook re-play. I don't tell people looking for DSD to buy an AN. But there isn't a whole lot of posts from me about it and I have never owned an AN CD player, Transport, or DAC! So If I am a huge Kool-Aid drinker I would own one RIGHT?
Turntables: Well the turntables are turbo-charged Systemdeks which were already highly regarded back in the day. Once again I don't go into threads with an AN turntable drumbeat. I don't rave on about it being better than Clearadio or VPI. Usually I enter a thread about the specific table or a systemdek upgrade. Strike three.
AN Speakers: Turbo-charged Snell. This is the one line of products that I recommend the most and 90%+ of the design was done by Peter Snell.
I recently purchased a $24,000 US version of the Audio Note E. Show me the post where I started a thread about this speaker that I have had since December? A kool aid drinking AN peddler would surely be out telling everyone to sell their systems immediately for the superior AN E would they not? Strike four
When does RGA recommend an AN speaker? When price performance, efficiency/ set-up restrictions, are a factor.
Even back when RGA was first recommending the speaker before many of the other mags got on board (like Line Magnetic - I was the first to review LM in North America - and I owned the gear BEFORE any review from anyone came out).
The fact is there were very very few affordable good efficient speakers available. You had basically two choices - a single driver (but Omega and Teresonic or even Zu were not around), and horns. Single drivers were largely found in DIY community. But from any sort of mainstream company the HE speaker was barren. The mainstream HE speakers in the late 80s and 90s people auditioned and did not like and they largely disappeared from the market. Klipsh pretty much stood alone and were selling in Canadian drug stores.
Pretty good budget horns like my Wharfedale Vanguard - well the company went bankrupt and sold to the Chinese - those horns disappeared. Klipsch top models were all gone from the market selling Home theater like horns. They survived but no one was salivating over 1990/2000 Klipsch speakers.
There was Reference 3a a brand that I was heavily touting in 1999-2003 and people called me a Reference 3a shill and kool aid drinker too.
And the same argument I used then against the sea of B&W and Paradigm low efficiency drivers was:
"But listen - you can run the De Capo with 10 watts or 1000 watts - you get lots of amplifier choices! Plus there is more bass here too for the money and a nice more involving sound - all day listenable. Pretty much the exact same comments I use now about the AN K or AN J and E I used about the DeCapo. If the person had the budget I would also talk up the Royal Master.
Most people on forums looking at speakers are typically in the $1,500 - $5,000 budget range.
The AN K and De Capo were my go to speakers because they were not exorbitantly priced - both use 8 inch drivers and both were efficient enough to get to 40-50hz and be happy with around 7 watts of power. Neither had that horn shout of horn speakers for the same money and both had more bass and bass impact than competing speakers like the B&W N805 (which to me sounded altogether worse but looked cool).
People would rag on me(without hearing either speaker), I would then ask well - recommend a better sounding speaker that covers the frequency response for the same money and were also happy with 7 watts. Crickets .... Strike five.
With the DeCapos price creeping up and the Audio Note J's price coming down to a point where it was about the same price - the battle was no longer AN K versus De Capo but AN K versus Dulcet and De Capo versus AN J
As a result the Reference 3a slipped away from my recommendations because the brand was even harder to find than the already hard to find Audio Note.
So I lost one of the two main speaker recommendations. The AN J is easier to drive, has significantly deeper bass response and smoother treble band. The dealer carrying both speakers let their entire customer base walk in and hear them both in the same rooms with the same gear over many years.
They no longer sell Reference 3a and have a huge wait list for the ANs. That's not my bias - you are welcome to phone Soundhounds and confirm - if you are a "scientist" then you know you have to evaluate facts with evidence even if it is evidence you personally don't "like". Strike six
Thus the only product from Audio Note that I recommend a LOT are the speakers. But that is not being a kool aid drinker it is because it's a highly versatile loudspeaker that comes at a great number of price points.
Price performance. I sold my Audio Note J/Spe speakers for more than I paid (and so would all other AN speaker buyers back them). So the AN J's net cost is Zero (I sold it for 17% more than I paid). And my speakers were the unifomly unpopular "black ash" and not in perfect condition (7/10)
So let's look at the market shall we.
I recommend the Audio Note J for under $3,0000. The buyer keeps it for 10 years he will likely sell it for $3,000. Thus a FREE loudspeaker aside from inflation but that applies to the rest of the industry.
The speaker is happy with 7 watts in a medium room. Bass will be solid under 30hz (Hi-Fi Choice got 22hz-3db) so it's pretty full range. As a scientist you can verify this measurement by purchasing the 2001 June issue of Hi-Fi Choice magazine and see the measurements for yourself).
Also note that it won the level matched blind auditions. So it's not like I am the only one touting the speakers.
So a guy asked for a sub 3k speaker and I recommend the J and the same people go ape chest pounding crazy. They ask for a near wall speaker - I make the same recommendation - they go ape crazy.
The I say okay what is the alternative that can go near a wall - that has sub 30hz bass, that can be driven with a SET and that is not a horn. Ape crazy.
Perhaps it is that people are drinking the "Anti-AN Kool Aid" - they immediately go off their nut as soon as someone touts a hugely popular loudspeaker just because they got into a bunch of forum arguments with Peter Qvortrup - now they see Kool-Aid Red anythime anyone likes a product from a man they hate. Bias? Strike seven.
Awayne says he only likes reviews with lots of pictures. Boy will he be disappointed with the above
You are funny.
Looking at your system in your profile puts a lie to everything you have posted here. AN this and AN that. Only your cd player is a holdover LM player. You HAD a LM amp... probably because living in Hong Kong you got it for a very good price.
You bought the LM219 for WAY less than $7500...don't even try to deny it. I could have got one here from Germany for under 4K and that was from the distributor not gray market.
You can say what you want about the rest...not really interested. If I ever hear an AN demo that blows me away, you will be the first to know, ok?
I might try to get an Oto SE signature to try on my speakers...it will have to run the gauntlet of Ayon Crossfire and JJ322 though...not an easy challenge. I would try a Meishu Silver Sig if the dealer has one to try.
I sold ALL my Ref 3as for more than I paid...so what? My friend who has one pair loves them...when I go to his place it is a very nice coherent sound. I rag on you and I have heard both (owned 3 pairs of Ref 3as). Would still have at least the Master Control MMCs (with Be upgrade) if I hadn't found my ultra rare Odeons.
Your points are meaningless in light of your system profile.
Yes I can get the LMs for less in Hong Kong - but then I can get virtually everything for less since I am a reviewer. I paid extra for the deluxe version - which is not available to Europeans or Americans.
So the price to me is still apples to apples.
I own some Audio Note gear yes - so what you own and continuously recommend Odeon all the bloody time - Odeon this and Odeon that. And before that it was Reference 3a this and Reference 3a that and before that it was an endless series of Apogee is better than anything at everything always - blah blah blah.
You sold your Reference 3a speakers for more than you paid (NEW right) You bought them brand new? No of course you didn't. Nice try bud.
I am talking about selling the speaker ABOVE the NEW list price or the new dealer price. I passed on a mint condition Reference 3a MM De Capo selling for $700 Cad.
The NEW list price was of that speaker was $2300. The speaker 13 years later LOST $1600. The AN J/Spe I sold for $450 more than the NEW LIST price.
Apples to apples. I could probably buy the De Capo for $700 and manage to find someone to pay $850 big deal. That is NOT the same thing. The guy who bought my speakers will very likely be able to sell it for several hundred more than he paid to me - I took less because I wanted to sell them quickly as I only stay in Canada for 5 weeks each year - not much of a window. And even then I had a generous fellow forum poster sell them for me.
I have 4 AN products
AN E/Spx AlniCo Hemp (the exact same pair as Steve Hoffman)
AN Oto Phono SE (in Canada not being used and when I get home I will be putting it up for sale) So I own it but not using it.
AN AX Two speakers
That 3 items being used and one to soon be sold.
Non Audio Note
Cambridge Audio CD 6
Line Magnetic 215
Line Magnetic 502CA
Marantz slim 1514 receiver
Sony CDP (300 disc changer)
KingKo KA 101
Grant Fidelity power conditioner
And several other cable brands from Linn and Tara Labs
How many ODEON speakers do you have. Seems you have fronts rears (that's 4) and you have a center and a second pair of fronts - that's 7 Odeon Speakers. I have 2 pairs of AN speakers (4). So what are you babbling about. I have 3 pairs (6 speakers) not from Audio Note.
I bet if Odeon made a good SET amp and an R2R DAC that you liked more than your monarchy you would BUY those too. But they don't so you don't.
I have two pairs...a pair in my big rig and a pair in my TV rig. I also have a pair of Decware HDTs that sound very nice as well, thank you very much. Don't know how the hell you got 7.
To be fair, the HDTs are probably overall better sounding than my small Odeons. Not as even but more lively.
I simply don't believe that someone paid you over new list for used speakers. Why would they do this??
you have 5 (or 6 products). You didn't count the cables, did you? You should.
Well, one of my friends liked the Odeons so much that he bought two pairs of big ones and is now an Odeon dealer. A second friend went Gaga and bought a pair as well...I just played the music they made up their own minds.
So far, nothing has made me replace the Monarchy until now. I am getting an Aries Cerat Kassandra II DAC. It is old school like AN (same AD1865N chip but 16 per channel) with tube and transformer coupling of the analog stage. I will keep the Monarchy for the TV system, which currently has a PS Audio Ultralink II from way back in 1993 (has UltraAnalog 20bit module in it).
I am not married to brands...look at my sources and amps: Monarchy/PS Audio and Kinergetics Research DACS (also with UA chips), Silvaweld phonostage, NAT Plasma and PureSound L10 preamps and Ayon Crossfire/JJ322 amps. Speakers I tend to stay with for longer. I haven't had Apogees in forever...I was more impressed with Acoustats and would have happily stayed with them if space was not an issue for a long time. Might even go back again for a second system.
If Odeon made amps and sources I would probably try them out...so what?
Whatecer you're a waste of my time. We go round the same things every 6 months for years. AN is selling hand over fist and has doubled their employye count just since the enjoythemusic interview with Peter. The Hong Dealer sold 200 M6 preamps at $20k ans that is just one model of one amplifier at one dealer.
So hate them all you like ... it will get you nowhere. All the dealers with AN speakers bring in competung nrand after competing brand and it's those that wind up getting dropped.
As for the speakers going up...that is in part because the new speaker goes up every couple of years...because the model LASTS.
The $2500 AN J in 2000 is now $5500 In 2017. So the owner can easily get $3000 to $3,500 today.
Let's use some logic here. I am quite sure at thus point that I have made all the possible points I can over the years. None convince you. So it's over.
You will not convince me. So you are 100% wasting your time engaging me. I like what I like amd I don't like what I don't like.
It's that simple. Time to ban each other from each other...or the bored administrators will eventually.
Unlike A Wayne who is just a troll, I respect you as a poster. But we just go down the exact same argument 50 times. You hate the AN E, I defend it and list the mammoth number of reviews that love it, I rip your speakers, you defend it and list reviews that support them. 6 months later rinse repeat.
Surely as a man who has an education you know that doing the same thing over and over and getting the same result is a pointless endevour. PS this applies to me as well.
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