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In Reply to: RE: Those darn measurements ! posted by Kingshead on June 24, 2017 at 20:36:29
You didn't list a speaker. You listed a measurement. Which looks like a sub (SMALL) satellite type.
The MBL is one system - you don't buy it in pieces like a Sub Satellite - I could buy a $5,000 Genesis subwoofer for my KEF LS-50 and get sparkling measured performance. The KEF LS-50 offers sparkling measured performance within its range. Adding two of the best subwoofers money can buy could match the bass performance of anything (in terms of measurements).
Wilso Watt Puppy is similar to the Gershman X1 Sub one or even the LS-3/5a and their subwoofer (AB1) (well bass anyway) module they put underneath the standmount. I'm not sure they count as sub satellites.
I mean if you look around how many floorstanding speakers on the market today have a tweeter and then a 6 inch or 8 inch woofer under them and then a bigger woofer or two under that. The B&W N801 may as well be called a sub satellite.
The only difference is that one is modular and the other is not. So basically all three way speakers are sub satellites by this rationale. One is physically attached to the sub cabinet and one is not. But the bass driver in the three way is essentially there to serve as a subwoofer (or deepish bass anyway).
But then are they actually serving as true subwoofers? Can you just buy the Puppy or the Gershman sub1 or the AB 1 for the LS-35a and hook it up to all speakers on the market? Do you just buy the MBL subwoofer portion of their flagship speaker and connect it to Infinity Beta RS?
The sub satellites I am referring to are the 99.99% of the sub satellites where someone buys a 2 way standmount and then buys a subwoofer of varying size and often not from the same manufacturer.
The KEF LS-50 is a mini-monitor or standmount loudspeaker. If I buy a subwoofer is it your contention that the LS-50 should be called a Satellite?
If so that's okay I will concede the point because it's not like it matters. If I buy a B&W N801 and then add a sub the B&W can be called a Satellite too if you like.
Edits: 06/24/17Follow Ups:
So now we're getting to the nitty gritty. What you don't like are sub sat setups that aren't designed as a system. I'll assume that list would also include designer systems such as the Bose life style et al?
And now you're stating the KEFs would benefit from the addition of a pair of quality subs? In essence making them a non matching sub/sat setup? Or is it your contention it's only a sub/sat setup if the manufacturer claims it as such?
My point, you dismissed an alarming number of outstanding speakers as if they were beneath you, speakers that will flat out spank your beloved KEFs into next week.
As for the specs I gave you, when was the last time a magazine reviewed a non matching sub/sat setup as a whole system? And if so, if it had specs setting the standards for others to follow, count me in as someone interested enough to check them out.
I find it curious you never bothered to ask what the speakers are, you just decided to dismiss them even though they met the criteria you set forth in your past challenge. De Nile is not just a river in Egypt.
First let me clear - my KEF's are not beloved. I don't love electronics or "things"
The Bose lifestyle I believe are advertised as sub satellite - if you can call it a sub.
I am not stating the KEF would benefit from a sub. The measurements would benefit from the use of a sub because you would be adding at least two octaves to the resulting sound. Dedicated subwoofers of high quality can measures quite well. And the KEF LS050 is for practical purposes the center section of the KEF Blade $32,000 floorstander.
As I said I am not going to argue the words you wish to use. In a sense the KEF Blade is a glorified KEF LS-50 with a giant bass/subwoofer unit attached to it as you can see in the link below.
It's basically the same but different looking Wilson Watt/Puppy.
But the Watt/Puppy is and the KEF Blade and the MBLs are NOT the speakers I am referring to when using the sub/satellite term. Sub Satellites for all the years I have been in this hobby and using the term mean small standmount speakers and a big cube box that sits on the floor. Like the picture above. Generally if the front speaker can't survive on its own it is not really a standmount loudspeaker. A Will Watt can survive without the Puppy. So can the LS-3/5a.
Using MBL as an example - a person can buy the MBL Radialstrahler mbl 120 standmount and NEVER buy a subwoofer for it and live quite fine. It will cover most of the frequency response on most music. I call it a standmount speaker - if you want to call it a satellite that's fine - I think we're talking about the same things using different words to make the points.
You should be in politics the way you dance around an issue. And wow, you still haven't asked about the speakers, absolutely close minded to anything anyone else might think. Ya, it's all about you.
The SIZE of the cabinets have absolutely nothing to do with whether it's a sub/sat setup.
And by your own words the only difference between a sub/sat setup and a more conventional one box design is the fact the bass driver doesn't share the same enclosure as the other high frequency drivers. Thus the vibrational energy from the bass driver doesn't interact nearly as much with other drivers, seems like a good thing to me, and I think the late great Arnie Nudell would agree lol.
SQ isn't the determining factor for why most speaker systems come in a single enclosure, it's the cost of manufacturing.
"And wow, you still haven't asked about the speakers."
Sorry I don't understand what you are asking. I asked people to list speakers that are considered the "most accurate" and you gave me a response plot. Instead of answering the question you want me to ask the question a second time. Is there a reason for that. You need the attention?
And then you get angry that I don't re-ask the question.
As I have now said for a third time - if you want to call ANY stereo a sub satellite system because you bought a subwoofer that is fine by me. I have been at this since 1987 and I've reviewed owned and auditioned a LOT of stereos and owned a nicely rated BA sub in the 1990s and I've never liked systems with subwoofers. The exception is when the subs (two) sit underneath the main speakers - like the Watt/Puppy.
So perhaps I am fine with SubS (plural)/Satellite not Sub(singular)/Satellite.
I am not saying you are wrong - when you say stuff on a forum that someone else is close minded to what you think how so? I am saying what I like and what I don't like in general terms. It's based on all the systems I have heard over the years. If someone presents me a system where there is a sub and it sounds good to me then fine - but it hasn't happened yet. I like em fine for movies and car explosions mind you.
But I have tried SUb Satellite from all sorts of brands over the years from KEF, B&W, Infinity, M&K, Paradigm, ELAC, Martin Logan, Dynaudio, McIntosh (the subs were not McIntosh I don't think), PSB, Pioneer and even with panels like Magnepan 1.7s.
I'm not saying I am right - I am stating that none of them have done it for me. But I will be covering the show in California next month and perhaps someone will set-up a system with one sub that impresses me. I always keep an open mind - it's why I continuously listen to gear that in the past I have not much cared for - in the hopes that the next time it will excite me.
No. I can't hear everything. Companies are free to contact my editor and request reviews for their speakers and I'm happy to try any subwoofer they wish to send me. If they are supremely confident in their product and that it will impress even perhaps stubborn reviewers then by all means.
I am a bit older school so the subs that I have experience with tend to be the bigger mainstream brands like Paradigm, Velodyne, M&K, B&W, and REL.
I was tempted by a complete M&K surround sound system as I did like their X series sub and their small on wall speakers pack some oomph. But I would pretty much have to recreate the entire room for it. I am still drawn the idea and may go down the path eventually.
You know what you like. I had a M&K sub that I only used for HT.
The Rythmic stomps it and work for music and movies. On rock music the drum kit is in the room.
Didn't you know? Subs are worthless.
Again, you should run for office.
I've owned many subs, not what this is about, it's about "your challenge".
You mention requesting a list of the top five measuring speaks with measurements included and claim "no one responded". I give you measurements and you don't want to know what they are, you dismiss them without any knowledge of what they are, this is the definition of close minded.
No sense beating my head against this thick wall any longer.
Next time you set out a challenge make sure you make it clear you don't "really" want any responses, you just want to keep on believing your right.
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