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In Reply to: RE: Marten Speakers posted by RGA on January 09, 2017 at 19:55:19
I agree that an audition is critical but my work really puts a constraint on my chances. I agree lot of products get rave reviews BUT not rave reviews everywhere.
Follow Ups:
Rique, dude, nobody is so work-chained that they can't find 2 or 3 days to drive or fly somewhere. If you own your own business, put your #2 person in charge for a couple of days. If there is no #2 person, and it's all YOU, dust off the answering machine, and get thee to a few dealers. This will take some planning, but I bet you can do it. Plan a couple of months ahead. Identify dealers with demo rooms. Call them. Nail them down on products ready to hear. Get an airplane ticket for $300. Reserve a rental car. Make a hotel reservation. Two months later, go listen to speakers.I cannot imagine spending $15,000 on speakers without hearing them first. That'd be like "mail-order bride".
:)
Edits: 01/10/17
Years ago I was going to buy a particular speaker. RAVE reviews, lots of people had them and liked them, so I figure I want them too.
Luckily 20 miles away a stereo shop did carry them as well as some other brands.
Me and the wife drove up there, listened to them and me and the wife hated them!!!!
Ended up buying a speaker for half the price and twice the sound quality.
Are you getting the point of this story?
Find any shop and just listen to their inventory. You most likely will end up with something you didn't set out for. Where do you live, heck I'LL find some shops in your area.
I have heard the speakers on your list. I like some of them for different reasons. A ribbon panel has certain advantages and certain disadvantages - for instance another poster below feels they don't pressurize instruments - that is my assessment of them - a sub adds bass depth and bass volume but that is not the same thing as midrange instruments being pressurized in the room - when you hear that you know what it is and it's something that some people really want. I've never heard it from any panel at any price with subs or not.On the other hand the panel can be more holographic like the cleanest window in existence through which to view the sunrise. While a great boxed speaker may tear down any and all windows put you out on the deck - to have you "there" but while there you have to breathe in a bit of smog. I take the "there" with a bit of dirt over clean but "through the window" - you may not.
Going by reviews can be somewhat dicey when you are looking at just high numbers of positive reviews. If you do that then you will wind up really only seeing the mega corporations because they can afford to send dozens of speakers to every magazine outfit - so yes you see a lot of B&W/KEF/Focal reviews everywhere because they're massive and all around the world. But then so is McDonald's - it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.
Using my Audio Note E speakers as an example: They have been well reviewed everywhere as well - magazines where at least one reviewer (often 2-3) not only gave them great reviews but ALSO bought a pair of either the Audio Note E or J is long indeed: Stereophile, Dagogo (where I write), 6moons, Hi-Fi Critic, Hi-fi Choice, TnT, Audiophile, Part-Time Audiophile, AVShowrooms (bought em and gave em product of the year 2015), Hi-Fi in Hong Kong - bought em gave em speaker of the year 2013) and on it goes. So not only do they get raves but the reviews have bought them - and a lot of them too - especially when you consider the company is mainly an amplifier and CD player manufacturer. B&W which probably sells 100 times more loudspeakers (at least!), should have 100 times more reviewers owning their speakers right? And yet it isn't the case.
There is the positive review and there is the thing the reviewer is truly passionate about. It is very possible for me to review something that I very much like because in fact I do. Take ATC - I like the sound - there is a cut through it like a knife exacting nature to them. Full marks. Great - but would it be desert island sound? No. Nothing against ATC - great build big drive and power (especially the actives).
As a reviewer it is difficult because you have to weigh how good the thing is both to yourself and to the reader and the intention of the product. Some stuff is geared to the strictly Hi-fi sensibilities of neutrality. So I try to listen for what the product brings to the table and the goal of the manufacturer and for what the target audience likes.
So if you want that sort of stunning clarity, holographic sound - I can review and recommend one sort of speaker. But if you like that enveloping big tone and body sort of sound that may miss the absolute in clarity and holographic sound then a different kind of speaker is easier to recommend. Simplistically - some people prefer more truth some prefer more beauty and some want something more balanced.
At the California Audio show a few years ago - I tried to find the best rooms with the best sound targeting both camps: The best two modern sounding rooms (Hi-Fi) I listed were YG Acoustics and MBL. The best beauty sounding rooms I chose Acoustic Zen and Von Gaylord.
So perhaps the best question we all should have asked you at the beginning, accepting that you have to buy unheard, is to1) list a few of your favorite speakers that you have already heard in your life. (This way we get an idea of what you kind of like.
2) the size of your room (dimensions length, width height and where you will sit. Also tell us if you have a live room or a dead room. Live would perhaps be a room with hard wood floors and not a lot of stuff in the room or on the walls. A dead room might heavily carpeted with bookcases and leather furniture that fills the room.
3) Music tastes. While I prefer a speaker that can play everything from gentle strings to AC/DC and Trance - the reality is certain speakers just don't do a great job with all these kinds of music and so if you like Dio/Slipknott/Nightwish,Disturbed or most Hip Hop then some speakers can immediately be crossed off the list - like most all single drivers.
4) do you think one day you might want to explore low powered tube amp options such as 8 watt 300B or 2A3 tube amplifiers. Many find this to be the best sound - so if you want to keep that option open it will force you to cross some of the speakers off your list because they may lack too much sensitivity and efficiency. (I hate spending money on something and a few months later I hear something much better and then get stuck with middling resale value).
5) Is there a wife acceptance factor on the look of the product? Some stuff looks modern and cool and may play a role. If this does not matter then really don't let it matter. A lot of stuff that looks cool and or has "conversation appeal" like tweeter on top sexy cabinets, or panel/planars or omni-directionals or fancy shmancy techno-babble like Diamond tweeters or Kevlar - or someone puts out a white paper - all this crap just gets in the way - does it sound any f-ing good? All that puff and bluff is trying to convince you to buy the stuff. I often wonder - gee if it is any f-ing good - it should convince you of all that when the play button is pushed or the needle drops.
6) speaking of resale value - this is another parameter to consider especially since you are buying blind. Will you be able to sell the product and not lose too much money. Some brands are very good - some rather not. Even big name high end brands are iffy. It doesn't necessarily mean the quality is poor or anything it's just the way the product is viewed by the worldwide market.
Buying second hand will minimize your damage should you not love the sound of whatever speaker that you buy.
My last point is that there is nothing wrong with your list - all fine makers - been around for many many years - all if it is good in some fashion - but will it be good to you or not is the thing.
Edits: 01/10/17
RGA,
That was good , concise and informative , Well, right up to the Audio Note interjection.. :)
Regards...
Thanks. I know my AN interjections may bother some posters but then it's been many years on many a forum and many a whiner and it doesn't stop me. I gotta be me my friend. So as I say - if it bugs you so much that the only reason you enter a thread is to comment on my comment - then I am in your head aggravating you - simply put me on your ignore list of don't read it. In fact by entering the thread and commenting on my posts merely "extends" the conversation and you are unwittingly advertising for Audio Note. The exact thing you don't want to be doing. It was those spiral threads that helped me land the review gig too. So all the people who got on may case - well I thank you. You put me on the radar so when I write a review hundreds of thousands of people read it instead of the 20-50 regulars here and the odd newb.
I will continue to bring them up because:
1) I own the brand of speakers and have since 2003 so I know it well
2) If it is relevant to the conversation
3) If I think it is superior in sound to what is being discussed
Enjoy my review http://www.dagogo.com/audio-note-uk-elx-hemp-loudspeaker-review
I did take a look at your AN infomercial , I need a bit more pics and objectivity to get a feel for it ..
BTW Your Premise on head space is all backwards ... Jump !!! :)
Edits: 01/10/17
The all new Klipsch Forte III $3800, were one of the best sounding speakers at the 2017 CES.
I think I'm going to slow down a bit and take into consideration some other players I have overlooked. The Wilson Audio Sabrina is in my price range and seems to be a great speaker. Anybody know when the closest audio show is and where?
Yep there is a WillsonAudio right here in my town. I've heard them and wow! However the ones I listened to were $109k.
I would say something stupid like "you can't go wrong with Wilson Audio speakers". Because it would be hard to go wrong with any of them.
Also look into Sonus Fabar. And again the ones that were on display were $246k and as big as my current car.
This is the link to my local dealership. Great guys to ask questions. Even for us poor folk. Talk to them and maybe they can hook you up with something a little more appropriate with your needs. Believe me these guys DON'T have to over sell you.
Keep us posted- RIQUE.
I've heard both the Marten Coletranes and Djangos on pretty high-end AN (UK) and SS amplification. They both sounded very good with both types of amplification and the Djangos were around $10,000 in those days. On both rigs, both these speakers were more truthful (and less "beautiful") than a pair of high-end AN(UK) Es, but still retained the heart and soul of SET amplification with the AN(UK)amplification. (But they actually sounded better (to my tastes) on a Lamm tube amp)!
Your main points are well-taken. I could afford neither, but had the luxury of living in a place with a friendly high-end seller.
More recently, I listened to the Djangos in Gotteborg, SE on different SS amps and loved them, there, too: very life-like, but very involving.
It's an interesting thing - taste - I have heard the Coltrane and Mingus and I didn't hear what you heard with them. I've only heard Marten twice but I wasn't stopped in my tracks to want to go deeper. I didn't hear them with either Lamm or AN though. I believe it was Cary at one show - and I'd have to check my notes as the other front end.
AudioFederation which carried Audio Note and Marten no longer carry Marten.
Yes, my preferences are all over the place, zinging back and forth between truth and imagination. I am frequently seduced by truth, but have never really been unfaithful to imagination.
Yes, Audio Federation got shafted by Marten, according to Neli. Did they ever find a place to buy in California? I haven't kept up.
Yes the rumour is a high roller Buyer auditioned via the folks at AF--
and purchased direct from Marten
Tsk Tsk very naughty!
D
Very naughty on the part of Marten.
:)
Ah so it wasn't the sound that made them drop the brand then? They were really big on Marten for a long time...
What..? you were hoping Richard would have said something .. :)
Of course he wanted it to look like they dropped marten because ANs are Soo good.
Well there is more than just sonic reasons to buy a product.If a company is shady with their own dealer/importer then they probably have no compunctions over being shady with their customers.
My sentence was:
"AudioFederation which carried Audio Note and Marten no longer carry Marten"Simply a statement of fact.
Dealers don't always carry products they think sound better. They carry products that customers wish to buy and which sell in enough numbers to keep them in business.
Dealers don;t always get their first choice either - they may want to sell something but the product is already being sold by a dealer in their region - tough luck - have to carry something else.
Edits: 01/12/17
Sure and if one can sell a loudspeaker wirh a 600.00 build cost for 25K guess which one becomes number one ....
Edits: 01/13/17
Still requires a buyer now doesn't it. I don't subscribe to the notion that everyone with money is a moron.
And if you have to cost sheets please provide it.
Well , you have heard the AN speakers , so you know how good and being Audio, there's a sound for everyone .
:)
Appreciate your extensive opinion RGA. To reply to your questions here goes...
1. Among my favorite all timers are the Thiel CS5, B&W 800 Nautilus.
2. My room is medium size 15 x 13 highly damped
3. In order of preference I like Jazz (Miles, Spyro, P.Methany), Sofisticated Pop (Swing out sister, Basia, Level 42, Tears for Fears)
Classical (Handle, Baroque, Mozart, Borodin) Classic Rock (Styx, Steely Dan, Springsteen)
4. I have two main rigs. On is powered by a Mark Lev 335 all ML SS gear. The other by a ARC and Counterpoint NPS200 all tube. I also like vinyl more than digital. VPI Avenger and VPI HWMK IV, Lux PD375. Koetsu, Ortofon PW
5. Wife is no problem. She feeds my crazy hobbies. As long a colors match the living room decor we are fine
6. I have considered used. I found a used Django XL in Spain for half the price of new...so, there must be a few out there that could lower investment risk.
7. One thing I appreciate with high end audio is clarity and definition. I love to be able to feel a vocalists breath for center rather than a huge image from panel speakers. Thatīs why I swapped my maggies as main speakers to B&W. I definitely donīt like horns. I tried a set of Klipsch horn and the sibillance that appeared now and then would kill me. Diamond tweeters also are very precise but I rather soft dome tweeters.
I know it gets complicated the more you dig in as it is a highly subjective matter but I feel Iīm the ballpark of my musical taste.
Given the room size you really don't need to be looking at big floorstanders which may create some problems. Most speakers require lots of space from walls which means they sit closer to you - with large multi driver speakers they need distance from you to properly integrate so that you don't constantly hear each driver out of step with each other.
Some speakers beyond my own Audio Note E that should consider given you like soft domes would be the DeVore Orangutan, Harbeth Super HL5 Plus, ATC SCM 40 or second hand 100s - I have not heard every model but all have that precision your after but also very controlled sound - and IMO warmer and more inviting than most pro studio speaker makers.
If you are willing to go a bit off the beaten path - I quite liked The Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers one of the few big speakers that always sound really quite good even in small hotel rooms. Von Gaylord "the Return of the Legend" - I can see why some would feel it's a legend. These are pretty dense and thick - not sure how they'd do in a heavily damped room. The Teresonic Ingenium is a single driver which is about as pristine as it gets in the midrange - and has pretty good bass - it is a single 8 incher and the largish cabinet extends bass response. It's the best I've heard from Single drivers along with Voxativ and Silbatone. But these are too big likely.
Further off the beaten path is Rosso Fiorintino one of the better floorstanders that I have heard. Easily beating top of the line Reference 3a speakers in the same room. http://www.rossofiorentino.com/en/collections-siena.asp
The Usher Be 10 is also an under the radar speaker that I prefer to more expensive B&Ws and Focals.
But some of these floorstanders IMO are too much for a 15 X 13 room. They may have more extension but at what cost.
$15K is a lot of money to spend without hearing what you are spending it on first.
What would I do in your position? First of all I would bear in mind that the existing list of favourite speakers you have may well have been built up from experiences over a period, perhaps a number of years. During that time the speakers that you had heard may well of gone out of production or have been changed in other ways (different components etc). Meanwhile other speakers will have come onto the market which you may like or even prefer to those on your shortlist.
With that kind of sum I would step back and find some kind of way to review what is on the market these days and try to actually hear them ( or some of them) rather than do it as a paper exercise with the risk of buying something you don't really like, no matter that some reviewer has gone crazy over it. Remember he has to find something new to write about every month and make it newsworthy and enticing to read.
So, rather than rush into it, and taking account of work demands on your available time, I would look at my diary and plan to get to one of the big audio shows. OK, shows are not the best place to form definitive opinions but they are good at giving an idea of what may really interest you - especially as some of those speakers may not even be on your personal horizon yet.
So maybe leave it for now and, say, visit the RMAF Colorado show in the autumn or even bite the bullet hard and have a short break in Europ to go to the big daddy High End show in May in Munich. You would get to hear a vast amount of what is currently about there. Furthermore Munich is a lovely city and your wife may well enjoy what it has to offer too. In the context of what you are willing to spend such a trip may be a good investment.
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