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I own a McIntosh integrated (MAC6700) and was thinking of getting a pair of Sonus Faber Venere S floorstanding speakers for my 12ft x 14ft room.I love deep, well-controlled bass and when I asked about bass response for the SF Venere S speakers, a rep from World of McIntosh mentioned the following:
"They don't have quite the depth of bass, but they are easy to drive, very "punchy" sounding and very clear sounding."
I tried a friend's ProAc Response D30R floorstanding speakers and those go very deep but I'm really not sure how to interpret the statement above.
What's your understanding of the rep's statement above?
Edits: 09/30/16Follow Ups:
You could look at floorstanders from Reference 3a, Usher, RossoFiorintino, and Tannoy as examples of some of the better affordable floorstanders I've heard recently.
Samurai
if your room is treated or heavily damped, you may want to add a subwoofer for deeper Bass. REL is a perfect, sonic match to your SF speakers.
Most important of all, what Cabling are you using?
No, my room is not treated or heavily damped. It's a typical North American living room with drywall finished walls, hardwood floors with an area rug and a heavy/thick curtain over the window behind the listening position.I'm using Crystal Cable Micro Diamond Series speakers cables and interconnects.
I'm not interested in a subwoofer. I use to have a Linn Akurate system with Linn bookshelves & subwoofer and never was able to dial-in / integrate the sub perfectly, so this is why I'm moving to floorstanding column speakers.
I'm now using a McIntosh MAC6700 stereo receiver (200W per channel - solid state).
Edits: 10/03/16
Nice cable selection. I understand any haphazard feelings on using a sub.
The most critical concept is using REL, as it is the easiest to massage, into any existing system.
It seems your heart is set on no sub. But what you want and what you will end up getting are going to be two very different animals.
Here's a little something to chew on. Why not look into some professionally restored vintage speakers. Ones with a nice big woofer that WILL give you that bass sound and feel you are looking for. For $3-5k I am SURE you will find something very nice.
He has a nice amp. Now he needs to get a speaker that better matches his room and other general setup components.
Sometimes we look at the bigger more shiny toy and forget what we really need.
If Samurai is going to drop $3-5k. Then lets get him the best match for his money.
I agree he's going to need that sub and not bigger speakers. Your recommendation was spot on.
If you're going to spend around $5K, you may as well at least audition a set of Legacy Audio Classic HD. Ribbon tweeter, dedicated mid range driver, and two 8" woofers, with bass response down to 32Hz.http://legacyaudio.com/products/view/classic-hd/
BTW, I listened to a set of SF Olympica I a couple weeks ago at a dealer, and, while they are certainly nice speakers, I was not blown away by them, especially for the money.
Edits: 10/02/16
Hey those look nice. I like the ribbon tweeter and the 8" woofer.
I auditioned the SF Venere S speakers on Saturday afternoon using my integrated amp and CD player.It's a really nice looking speaker but in the end I was not impressed. It's a good speaker for Jazz & Classical but for Rock, you'll definitely need a subwoofer & I'm not interested in getting one for my setup.
Plus depending on the type of music, I found the speaker can sound a little flat at times. A musician friend of mine tagged along for the audition and he was not impressed at all with the Venere S.
The speaker is definitely lacking in bass and due to it's down-firing port being very close to the floor, it did not perform well with carpeting underneath it.
We then auditioned the SF Olympica II, ProAc Response D30R, B&W 804 D3 and Wilson Audio Sabrina. The Olympica II proved to be a better sounding speaker than the Venere S but was still lacking in bass however, had a sweeter midrange and better highs. The other three speakers worked extremely well with all types of music, including Rock and these three produced some very deep, well-controlled bass.
Budget-wise, the ProAc speakers would fall within by budget, with the B&W requiring maybe another year to accumulate the necessary additional funds. Unfortunately, the Wilson Audio are just too expensive for me.
All-in-all, it was a real eye-opening weekend and it was proof (to me) that you really need to audition speakers before you buy & not to buy them based on what people say, including reviewers & publication.
Edits: 10/02/16
Keep an open mind about subwoofers. In the near term a monitor/sub (or 2) combo or go ahead and get the best floor stander you can and consider adding a sub later. I have larger ProAcs that have good bass response, but adding a Rythmic F15 HP made my system come alive for rock music. The Rythmic has great controls for integration and the 15 in servo woofer gives you the power rock music needs without mid bass boom.
I feel the OP pain with not wanting to use that sub. But just as you described - it adds another layer or dimension to the music in a positive way.
As I've already said - get the right SIZE speaker and add the sub. It's like prison sex - it's going to happen!
Nope, no sub for me...
I am in the same boat as you.
If you want BASS you're gonna have to get the big woofer. There just isn't any stinking way around that!!!!
Why do people insist on thinking if they just keep looking at a 6.5" woofer long enough that it will all work out with bass.
Never asked for 20Hz bass. But I believe 27-30Hz range possible with standard floorstanding loudspeakers. Good enough for me.
Yeah, I also favor large floor standers, with as much quality bass as I can get from them. I'm currently researching speakers to upgrade my aging Legacy Audio Signature II, which have three 10" woofers on them. They are rated down to 22hz, but even my smallish Outlaw LFM-1 sub outclasses them, as to deep bass impact and extension. And I have a very powerful amp connected to the Signatures.
Now, I am evaluating a set of the new Legagy Signature II, and they are clearly a much more advanced and better speaker, but may not reach as deep as my old Signatures. Seeing that the Legacy Focus SE can be had for around $3K more than the Signatures, I am going to check out the Focus.
The Legacy Focus SE is a different animal, with its two 12" woofers. I recently heard a two-channel system with Focus SE, and the bass was wonderfully prodigious, deep, and tight. My suspicion is that if you really want effective bass response down to 27hz, you are going to have to go to something along the lines of the Focus SE, or other speaker with 12" woofers.
Go over to Madisound and pull up the data sheet on any 6.5" woofer. They start rolling off at around 90-100z. At 30hz you're at -18db SPL. Even the manufactures that boost up their specs and even LIE say it's maximum range is 45Hz. And at 45Hz that's STILL -10db with a signal generator. Bass ain't happening Friend!
The measurements of a raw driver don't tell the whole story because they don't take into account the effect of whatever enclosure you're using (how it uses the backwave). There's one thing you can't get around, though, and that's that you must trade cone diameter for excursion and speakers get less and less accurate the more you move the voice coil.
Small drivers can theoretically go very low and some do go quite low. The problem is they can't do lows at high levels and then you couple that to the way our ears work(see Fletcher/Munson). Our ears are way down at very low frequencies at normal loudness levels. So you need lots of air movement to hear low bass even when it's there meaning you need lots of area on the bass drivers.
The human does not work like a SPL math formula. It works by physically being pushed by sound waves. At those frequencies you need a lot of air push.
As for distortion what about the effect of coherence using multiple drivers. That isn't any better than a single larger cone.
Like most things a trade off. It's easier to get a lower free air resonance in a big driver since the cone is heavier. But multiple drivers being smaller are easier to get rigid for reduced breakup and lots of voice coils, even if smaller, may handle more power. Then again longer throw is simpler on a large driver.
By the way for what it's worth I use an 18" driver. Then again the designer of my woofer in his next design used 2 10" woofers.
Ok then, it' NO SUB FOR YOU TWO WEEKS!!!!
No seriously, at least check out some of the vintage style speakers with large woofers. I really DO understand what you are saying. Check out something like JBL 4311 or JBL century L100. It will get you the bass you want and they are good speakers. That Mac 6700 and those speakers would be a real killer combo. It's like Mac was made for them. People just use them on 6.5" woofer speakers because that's what being sold now. And I really feel a lot of people are just convincing themselves "it's good - really!"
There is no replacement for the large surface area of a single low frequency driver. You want to rock?
Edits: 10/06/16
Hi samurai7595,
What were your observations between the SF and ProAc? Which would you prefer and why? I have auditioned the SF Olympica III and the BW 804D3. The BWs were nothing special.
Thanks!
The SF Venere S sounded flat with very weak bass and seems like they would work best with Jazz an Classical but not rock. I did not feel the "punchy" sound their rep described. Due to the bottom port design, they are affected by the flooring material they are placed on (not very good with carpeting) and for best bass performance, they must be placed with the base perfectly level to the floor. These would definitely benefit from a sub.
The ProAc Response D30R are very transparent, smooth midrange, none-fatiguing highs with a very deep & well-controlled bass. They worked very well with ALL types of music. Plus their bottom port design, due to the base platform, are a lot easier to place and bass would not be affected by the type of flooring material. These would not require a sub.
Thank You for the feedback!
Which speakers are you looking to buy now? Or will you audition a few more before you settle on a pair?
I think I'm going to audition a few more before I decide.I'm curious to hear Spendor D7, Ryan R630 or R620, Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand SE or Beethoven Baby Grand SE and PMC Twenty5.26 or Twenty5.24.
Edits: 10/03/16
I've always been a firm believe of the Linn philosophy, where "Source Comes First". It makes perfect sense since you can only output what you input (i.e. garbage in = garbage out). If you have cheap sources, your speakers will not make it better.So now that I'm satisfied with my sources and amplification (best I could buy for my budget - at least to my ears), I'm looking for the best possible floorstanding speakers within my budget that will work great in my 12ft x 14ft room. Budget: $5,000 - $7,000 US.
Amplification = McIntosh MAC6700 integrated
Sources = Rega RP10 turntable, Aurender N100H streamer, Bryston BCD-1 CD player (rarely use my CD player)
Cabling = Crystal Cable Micro Diamond Series
Speakers = Still researching but ProAc Response D30R are at the top of my list for now
Edits: 10/04/16
Going up to $7000 opens up a lot of possibilities! I'm now doing a home audition on the Legacy Audio Signature SE, which gets you into the Dual Air Motion ribbon tweeter and mid range drivers, and bass extension down to 22Hz. I recently auditioned the Dynaudio Contour 3.4 at around the same price, and, while it is a very fine speaker, it's not a fair fight. With these Signatures, the highs are so clear and articulated, but without being harsh or "etched". Another great feature is that they do not resort to a mid-bass boost in order to give the impression of greater bass response, and there is even a 2dB bass attenuation switch, to be used in the event of too much room-induced bass boost. Electric bass lines are really nice to follow on these. Vocals are just incredible, in that there is not a hint of nasality or enclosure resonance on either male or female voices. BTW, I've also heard good things about the Ryan Audio speakers, but have not had a chance to hear them.
Edits: 10/04/16 10/04/16
Beautiful! mtrot.
I love my original Heil AMTs
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
That's a sweet list of speakers. Are they available at some showroom? If you can can you hump over your amp to try them with?
Your shortlist is so similar to mine. I also plan to listen to the Spendor D7/D9, PMC Twenty5.26 and the ProAc D30R before deciding on a final one. Have you listened to the PSB Imagine T3?
And dialing into your room/listening space.
What are your "wants" in tonal quality?I know you want bass but the sad truth is you ain't gonna get it with most of today's offerings. at best you'll get 40hz but you're not getting "BASS". You are going to need that sub unless you go the old school designs of "DUDE, that's a big-bad-woofer".
Just a generalize finding. If you want natural tones paper coned mids / woofers have been the gold standard for that quality. Exotic materials have tried but never really grasped it. They are just easier to deal with in production.
If you want bass then the bigger the cone the more bass ya gonna git. Not the bigger the box the more bass you're going to get.
The bigger the box doesn't equal bigger sound quality.
If you do go with a sub, and I think you will end up doing that, then just keep this in mind. If a speaker does go down to low then you start running into blending problems. Find a good smallish tower or really GOOD monitor that has at least a 7" cone. Like the Zaph Audio SR-71s. Opps did I mention those again?
If you are willing to drop around three or four grand on a speaker consider the Revelator tower kit at Madisound and have a speaker cabinet custom built for you. Again - you're not finding much better in the class.
Edits: 10/02/16
I've been enjoying the SR71 you put me on to a year ago.
Is the Revelator a big step up? 2-way version?
Thanks.
Lord knows I've done a LOT of reading on that very topic. And the final answer - no. From those that actually HAVE both they say little to difference between them. The only difference if any was the tower version of the Revelator had a "TAD" stronger bass. But that was it!
So you built the SR-71s. I'm amazed at how good these speakers are. I had to get used to using a subwoofer. But once I did get used to that setup I can never see myself ever going back.
A year of so ago I pulled out a set of A-25s, once my favorite all time speaker. Set them up and after about 5 minutes I thought - "what was it I did like about these". Put the SR71s back in and never looked back.
Nice pic- airtime.
The low note on the piano is 27.5 Hz but go ahead and bang away on it and measure how much softer it is than the same amount of pressure on A-440 in the middle or 4186Hz on top.
As a consequence, speakers "flat" to approx. 40Hz and down 6 dB (F6) in the mid-20s will accurately reproduce bass music whether it be Haydn, Harry James or Hoodoo Zombies.
You want to blow candles out you can use a sub-woofer that is impossible to musically integrate with quality speakers or go for something like the Diavelets (a relative has a pair) that produce chest-thumping bass and room clearing mids and highs or some multi-woofer coffin with Xmax of 8" and Bungee Chord Bass.
Thank you. I didn't want you to get the wrong impression because that was my intended goal.
Well the black and white and white on black backgrounds are an eyesore on their website. So maybe post the specs for us to see what they are claiming in regards to bass. I have heard a number of Sonus Fabers - I don't recall them being bass monsters. If bass is a huge deal you may want to consider adding subwoofers - and then buy the main speakers that you "like the best" for music. If that is Sonus Faber then go for it - good reputable brand as are most. Bass can be added later (maybe not easily) but it can.
The Venere S is also on my radar. Another option to look at is a used pair of Olympica or Cremona's which come up quite often.
Currently using the Opera Seconda, which is an Italian made "budget" SF style(nice veneer & leather) Nothing "wrong" with what them, just considering something up the food chain that doesn't lighten the wallet too much $$$!
I use an REL sub, so the lowest frequencies aren't a concern. Wouldn't consider any setup without one.
Great speaker but I seem to be quite along on this topic. A 6.5" driver, no matter its design, claim, cumulative array cone area, etc.. and under NORMAL amp conditions is only going to go so low and no more.With an array you will get MORE bass for THAT driver. But a typical 6.5" driver is already rolling off in the 70hz-ish range. Low bass - that dog ain't gonna hunt!
Just try and match the speaker size to your room and get the sub. Unless you go old sckool and get a speaker with a 10" woofer.
The 6700 has a low damping factor of 40 so you are off to a good start. Mac's always had a rock solid bottom end. The 6700 was perhaps one of the only Mac's I wanted after I heard one in a show room in a Scottsdale Best Buy. Enjoy!!!
Edits: 10/01/16
How are your room acoustics? Do you use bass traps?
That is the biggest factor in making a room "bass" friendly. If you have good room acoustics, smaller speakers will sound deeper and bigger speakers won't sound boomy.
As always, I recommend talking to GIK Acoustics thanks to the low cost, and high value and extensive free consulting. ASC is also very good but man, pricey.
Best,
Erik
I would ignore the mfg rep's statement. Opinions in this hobby are like asking 100 Italians the best recipe for spaghetti sauce. You'll get 100 different answers.
Listen for yourself. If you're impressed, see if you can get a home audition. Bass response in a small room like yours is tricky.
Ohhh, I am Italian.
> > Ohhh, I am Italian.
OK, I'll bite. What's your recipe for spaghetti sauce?
Naturally, it is a secret. I can divulge that Basil is the key ingredient ;)
You should do what my mother-in-law does -- freely give out the full recipe, but minus one critical ingredient or step. Makes everyone think you're being helpful but assures her status (at least in her mind) as the "superior" cook. ;-)
I have to agree. That is good advice for the OP.
I am unsure what " depth of bass" means. Was the rep referring to frequency response or power response? There are numerous speakers that go low but cannot produce adequate energy levels at such frequencies. Others do not go down so far ( e.g. say to 20Hz or below) but are still satisfying as they do allow realistic bass levels in the region where the music mostly is. Pipe organ enthusiasts have their special needs, of course.
I would also remark that speakers with accurate bass reproduction can sound as if the bass is lacking until some really comes along. Many speakers are a bit hyped in the mid bass so as to impress on audition and I think that generally we have become a little used to this kind of sound.
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