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In Reply to: RE: Do you find that posted by Thorsten on July 12, 2012 at 08:43:51
That approach is exactly the opposite of what JBL does with many of their systems. They run midrange drivers up to frequencies where the image gets very narrow and then - transition to a wide dispersion tweeter!
That results in a very strange pinched in the middle "fun house mirror" image. :)
Follow Ups:
"That results in a very strange pinched in the middle "fun house mirror" image."
Or the inverse of having accentuated highs and lowes in proportion to the mids. The music of the far east is well served by speakers of this sort, hence why these horn speakers sell so well there.
I had the old L300s in my ear bleeding younger daze and can attest that the off axis sound out of them is like a ragged edge. Thosrten can bring us as many graphs as he cares to. The reality is that those speakers absolutely stink in comparison to what we have available today. The Paragon, while a beautiful piece of wood, would probably greatly disappoint us all. I believe the myth is probably far greater than the actual performance that it could muster, and may be the reason it is merely on display in the lobby of 8500 Balboa Blvd.
Hi,
The L-300 is not an example of what I was writing about.
Why does everyone always want to generalise? I wrote specifically about one specific pair of drivers, their properties and specifics in their use. If you have anything else (e.g. the L-300) then you are talking about something completely unrelated.
It is like I am talking about a classic Jag and you insist on bringing in a Yugo "because it also has wheels", pointless...
Ciao T
Sometimes I'd like to be the water
sometimes shallow, sometimes wild.
Born high in the mountains,
even the seas would be mine.
(Translated from the song "Aus der ferne" by City)
OTOH, you never know. Thorsten may be on to something. Perhaps the old Cabaret portable sound guitar speakers with their K or E series drivers will become the new "high end"... And for the truly "enlightened" audiophiles like Thorsten, they'll have to take out the 800 and 1500 hz crossovers and bump those big 15 inch "full range" drivers up to 5000 hz or so...
Perhaps this will be the image/look of the new audiophile illuminati...
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/cabaret.htm
(eyeroll)
Last time I heard an old Cabaret speaker, I had to walk away with my ears covered - it was that bad.
Hi,> OTOH, you never know. Thorsten may be on to something. Perhaps the
> old Cabaret portable sound guitar speakers with their K or E series
> drivers will become the new "high end".Who knows. If you address the particulars well enough they can give the basis for something quite interesting.
> .. And for the truly "enlightened" audiophiles like Thorsten,
> they'll have to take out the 800 and 1500 hz crossovers and bump
> those big 15 inch "full range" drivers up to 5000 hz or so...I see you are cherrypicking again what wish to quote and what not.
What I did actually write that first it was neccesary to equalise the severely non-flat response of the Drivers, in our case we combined acoustic means (short rear horn at LF) and electrical means (LCR Traps). Once this is done the resultant frequency response is flat and the off axis response by far better than you think.
Many modern "Mid-Bass" drivers also have a severely non-flat response that must be equalised. If you listened to them without EQ you would amazed just how bad they sound...
You can of course just use a normal line level equaliser and do the same.
> http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/cabaret.htm
>
> (eyeroll)
>
> Last time I heard an old Cabaret speaker, I had to walk away with my
> ears covered - it was that bad.Did you take care to equalise the system for flat response before listening? Otherwise I would be unsurprised.
Again you ignore most of what I wrote and cherrypick something that you can use to be negative. What I have described is not only possible, the results are quite good, good enough for me for example to call the D130 "The Best Mid Bass Driver ever", though the 15" Tannoy Monitor Red, the 15"EV SP-15 with Alnico Magnet and the old Alnico Magnet Altec 604 run it a more than close joint second.
Just get over it. You do not know all there is to know in the world (neither do I, though it seems more than you on the topic).
Stop insisting that white must be black because you say so (and because you lack the understanding to see that what I called white was white) and you may find we have more views in common than apart, though I tend towards a far more narrow directivity as desirable than your key source and that for very good reasons.
Ciao T
Sometimes I'd like to be the water
sometimes shallow, sometimes wild.
Born high in the mountains,
even the seas would be mine.
(Translated from the song "Aus der ferne" by City)
Edits: 07/16/12
Hi,> Ah, narrow directivity tweeter
Well I did say it was an 075.
Google Image Search for JBL 075
> That approach is exactly the opposite of what JBL does with many
> of their systems.Actually, the serious studio systems (and the derivative Home Versions which since the 1980's have generally not been sold in the US but strictly in Europe and Asia - e.g. Everest 4400, K2 and so on) have exceptionally well controlled directivity, though usually much wider than the original 1950's D130 & 075.
So you must be talking about the consumer grade stuff they generally sell in the US...
> They run midrange drivers up to frequencies where the image gets
> very narrow and then - transition to a wide dispersion tweeter!
>
> That results in a very strange pinched in the middle "fun house
> mirror" image. :)Yes, that is generally a very bad idea.
Given the JBL is part of Harman and Floyd O'Toole worked/works for Harman I am a little surprised such designs would actually be sold, but there is a large gap between actual engineering and marketing and customer expectations in Audio.
The Kind of "JBL" I am talking about is probably best embodied by the original Everest (D4400) though the more recent one is also pretty awesome and the S9500 and related Speakers.
Ciao T
Sometimes I'd like to be the water
sometimes shallow, sometimes wild.
Born high in the mountains,
even the seas would be mine.
(Translated from the song "Aus der ferne" by City)
Edits: 07/12/12
So you must be talking about the consumer grade stuff they generally sell in the US...
And the once popular 4310/4311 pro monitor series.
Hi,
> And the once popular 4310/4311 pro monitor series.
Funny, those.
They where basically 2-Way with Supertweeter. They used a 12" up to around 1.5KHz handing over to the 5". Not an ideal choice.
They where probably designed when the real Engineers where out for a beer or two...
Ciao T
Sometimes I'd like to be the water
sometimes shallow, sometimes wild.
Born high in the mountains,
even the seas would be mine.
(Translated from the song "Aus der ferne" by City)
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