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In Reply to: RE: Big speakers + small room = Bad? posted by Raymond Leggs on June 28, 2012 at 14:37:27
IMO, the only thing big speakers buy you is bass. Other than that, they detract from good imaging and soundstage. That's why I like small speakers with a subwoofer in a small room. I like my speakers placed well out into the room for the best imaging and soundstage, but woofers don't produce deep bass when placed far away from walls. That's why I'm a firm believer in the satellite/subwoofer arrangement. It just sounds better to me.If you want more volume in a small room, there are small floor standing speakers that will provide loud volume levels. However, I think you might still need a subwoofer against a wall to get strong deep bass. The subwoofer need only reproduce the bottom octave, but it really adds to the realism. I have my subwoofer's low-pass filter set for 55-Hz. All you hear with the satellites turned off is a deep rumble, but it fills out the bottom end beautifully.
Anyway, I like small speakers with a subwoofer in a small room. And, I like my subwoofer placed behind my listening position about the same distance from my ears as the satellites in front.
Best regards,
John Elison
Edits: 06/29/12Follow Ups:
I think that can certainly be the case when the large speakers are built with the some type of approach as small speakers. Most seem to be, ie. inefficient, small, high-Q drivers in large(ish), nicely-finished bass reflex boxes.Also, many (most) large speakers are designed specifically to take advantage of a larger space.
There are other approaches, but you won't find them in many HiFi Couture outlets. Convenient, fashionable, accessible and almost universally applicable in modern systems. Which is fine, but there are other ways.
Cheers.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
Edits: 06/30/12 06/30/12
I miscalculated my room size its much smaller than "22 x 14" somebody stole my measuring tape..
Currently, my "big" stereo resides in the smallest room in which I've ever had a stereo system. With a pair of nearly full range floor standers (NHT Model 2 -- 40Hz-22kHz) plus a powered subwoofer (M&K 12", also sealed cabinet), I'm getting great sound in a room that's just about 12'x15'x9' (speakers along 12' front wall). I actually have two more 2.1 stereos in this room at the moment - the TV setup and the laptop's "desktop" system - each consisting of a pair of mini-monitors and a subwoofer. Though it's perhaps not entirely fair to compare the little systems against their bigger, "featured" sibling, I do notice a distinct advantage with the big system.
Disregarding the TV system for the moment (I do care about it, but not nearly as much as I care about the other two), while the computer's system sounds great, there's simply no contest with the larger system. Without question, the big system sounds more "life size". The computer's system is in the probable process of sounding even better with the trickling in of a couple more components over the next couple weeks (new "fuller range" satellite speakers and a small hybrid tube/ss amp).
I'm curious to hear what will happen with the following changes to the computer's system...
Currently:
Digital USB from computer to Bifrost DAC (big system has its own Bifrost)
NHT Super Zero mini-monitors (low end of frequency range being -3dB at 85Hz)
HSU Research STF-1 subwoofer (down firing 8", ported, pretty large cabinet). With the Super Zero's low end already rolled off at 85Hz, the HSU sub's "high end" of 90Hz is cutting it pretty close, though the combination is sounding pretty good. Still though, I'm working on getting small speakers with a lower low end, to take some pressure off the sub.
Dayton DTA-100a Tripath 50 wpc integrated amp
Coming changes (orders placed - now on their way):
1) Napa Acoustics NA-208S ported mini-monitors (low end of frequency range - 55Hz)
2) Maverick Audio TubeMagic A1 hybrid tube/class A/B integrated amp (20 wpc)
To be fair:
I don't expect either the 50 wpc Tripath or the 20 wpc hybrid to compete with the big stereo's 50 wpc pure class A Forté 4a. Nor do I expect the 8" HSU sub to compete with the M&K 12", but I must say, that little HSU goes surprisingly low, with high quality sound!
As mentioned above however, there's no way around the reality here - the "big" system is far and away the most "life size" and pleasing sound in this small room.
I am planning to switch to floor standing speakers because I want more volume than my little stand mounted satellites can provide. Furthermore, I still intend to use my subwoofer to reinforce the deep bass in the lowest octave. The floor standers I'm planning to buy have a small footprint and will take no more space than my stand mounted satellites. There are definitely different ways to achieve good sound. For me personally, though, small speakers seem to look and perform better in a small room.
Best regards,
John Elison
Not for me. I have never heard a sub/satellite system that sounds as good and integrated as a nice big 3 way, unless maybe using two subs as stands for the sats.
If you've got a 3 way with woofers that are crossed over at 80 hz it sounds a lot different than a system with woofers that are crossed over at 300 hz. I find sub/sat systems really inadequate with large scale music. There are limits but I'd much rather have speakers that were a little too much for a room than ones that can't adequately fill it. You can tame the room. If the speakers can't fill the room properly you need new ones.
Once done positioning and getting polarity right,turn down the gain on the subs until you almost can't hear them. Now turn them down a 'steenth more.
Play some music with the main amp off (obviously this only works with a pre-amp, line level sub output and main amp), and listen for output from the subs. If you can faintly hear a marching band practicing 3 or 4 blocks away, you're there.
Put on an album you're really familiar with and smile as fuller, deeper bass than you've heard before issues forth but you can't tell it's not from your main speakers.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a
drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'
In a small, 12x15, room.In case you're wondering about boominess, people ask if I have the subs on. I just smile.(ignore the 8"'rs on top of the subs, those are TV speakers)
The only thing that keeps me from having more subwoofers to smooth bass response is the small room size. I'd like to have a total of 5.
John, I'm sure your B&Ws have great sound but for me, nothing does treble like horns and the 15" JBL 2226s have such low distortion the mid-range is just pure tone and texture.
Somewhere there's an AES paper cited by Wayne Parham that horns and bass reflex combination 2 ways only need 3 feet to present a unified soundwave. Small rooms will do, keeping in mins they present their own unique set of problem interactions that need to be overcome. The most important, and most overlooked component in this hobby is the room.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a
drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'
Edits: 06/28/12
I'm with you Bill.
Good quality, large cones simply sound more effortless in general and more dynamic through the upper bass and lower midrange, if loaded correctly. This applies to most types of music and volume levels. I find this contributes to powerfully moving musical experiences.
Perhaps it is more about large mid-bass cones and less about large speakers, per se (though large-coned speakers tend to be large, but not necessarily the vice versa).
Cheers.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
I realized early on that a sub/satellite system was the best solution for my small room. A powered sub/satellite system is much easier to dial in than fiddling with a full range floorstander and a ton of bass traps. Been there,done that. Not saying there aren't some full range exemptions ( my friend has had small room success with one of the Tekton Lore models), just have personally gotten more satisfying results with my little REL T-2 sub and an assortment of smaller mains. Two shockingly good examples of speakers that work wonders in a small room are the Ohm/Walsh Micro Tall and the slightly larger Ohm/Walsh 1000.
I have to agree with John 100%.
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