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In Reply to: RE: WOW! Pic of BSI speakers model 3. All Scanspeak drivers. posted by DanWilson on June 15, 2012 at 20:16:10
Dan:
Some around here think the Dayton audio subs are not really "audiophile" quality, but I think that's a very subjective opinion at best. I've used these metal cone subs in a few projects now but only for home theatre. But, in a strange coincidence related to this very thread, I was listening to HT system upstairs last night for 2-channel music (for the first time, just for fun, really) and I gotta say I was quite surprised to say the least. In my throw-together HT system, I have the 10" version of that sub in the corner of the room with a Dayton audio 250W plate amp in a sealed box. Of course, I am running the main speakers as "large" and crossing in the sub at about 60hz which is where the sealed-box way fronts in the system.
So I am listening to this system in a "2.1 mode" with all effects off, using a Panasonic DMP-BD60 as a digital source (bitstream out) into a vintage Yamaha RXV995 receiver digital input. So the Yamaha is acting as the DAC, pre-amp and AMP you could say. (I can't believe a consumer DVD player with optical digital out into a vintage receiver acting as DAC can sound this good actually. Very impressive considering the price point of these admittedly mid-fi components.)
Back to the sub. I really can't believe how well this little 10" sub integrates with two 2-way speakers that are really more refined. The sub's sealed box design could have something to do with it. The bass sounds were coming out of the soundstage right where the midbass sounds were coming from. Now, in the room, the couch is against the wall and the speakers are only 24" from the front wall. These two things make the soundstage wider, shallower and more diffuse. Just by moving my head forward off the couch makes the sounstage much closer to an "audiophile" flavor, with a more concise center image, less diffuse and more palpable. Center image is tighter and gets deeper. But all that said, the bass follows along - it changes with the other soundstage changes.
Would I recommend the Dayton aluminum cone subs for music duty? Yes but with caveats. Lately I only use sealed box subs and that's just my preference. I also think most audiophiles who complain of sub integration issues are crossing at 80Hz or higher, with 2nd order slopes and are trying to get "more bass" (baffle step compensation?) rather than truly try to integrate the sub frequencies. After all, sub stands for "subsonic" or "below sonic", which is really down there. 80, 90 and 100Hz bass is not subsonic - it's surely sonic bass. It's low bass, but it's sonic.
Anyways, I would LOVE to hear that speaker design and listen to how they've integrated that metal cone sub with the world class midbass and tweeter they've intelligently selected. Speaker looks nice too, but I would love to see it in a dark red color, with a deep lustrous clearcoat finish. Piano black just isn't my thing these days.
I would also love to know the technical aspects of the design - especially how they integrated the sub with the Scan Speak midbass. That midbass has a very low Fs, something other 7" midwoofs are not famous for. Many designs use that 7" in a full-range design, in fact.
Yes, I would not hesitate to audition those!!
Cheers,
Presto
Follow Ups:
Presto thanks for the info.
What are the best drivers you've tried for making speakers?
Scanspeak to me makes the best tweeters.
I love the Scanspeak Revelator mid. But i must say the Scanspeak Kelvar mid was not good. It was edgy sounding.
Dan:
I have used Focal, Vifa, Seas, Audax, Peerless, Dayton Audio and probably a few others. Some Seas and Vifa drivers are excellent value, as are some of the Dayton products. If you go to zaphaudio.com he's got some fantastic test results for various drivers in easy to navigate "shootouts".
Cheers,
Presto
True subwoofer frequency range is the octave between 16 to 32 Hz. Low bass range the two octaves between 20 to 80 Hz, the midbass 80 to 120 Hz, upper bass 120 to 180 Hz, lower midrange 180 to 360 Hz, the middle midrange 360 to 1,500 Hz, upper midrange 1,500 to 3,000 Hz, lower treble and the heart of the treble the two octaves between 3,000 to 12,000 Hz and the upper treble anything above 12,000 Hz.
With my computer's speaker system (totally separate from main music system), out of necessity, the sub is crossing over at 90Hz (its high limit).The satellite speakers I'm using are NHT Super Zeros (-3dB at 85Hz). The sub (HSU STF-1) has 90Hz as its maximum high point for "low pass" crossover. That's cutting it very, very close, but I'm happily surprised at just how well they're blending.
In my main system, I have floor standers (NHT Model 2) running full range (down to 40Hz), and the sub (M&K 12") crossing over just barely above 40Hz (going down to about 20Hz). This main system remains in another league altogether. Still, I'm very happy with the computer system as well, for what it is. I've not heard many--if any--"mere computer speaker systems" (not "main" systems") sound this good.
Edits: 06/18/12
Yes, some smaller speakers will need a higher crossover point like that. In that case, I will run a "sub" under each speaker (except not for computer desktops of course). This way you get more of a pseudo-3-way than a sub/sat system. This is especially true if the sub lowpass filter is 2nd order. 2nd order + 90hz = too much sub localization for me.
I think this end of the spectrum is where many 'philes get "hard to integrate subs properly" from.
Myself, I love working with subs. Way more flexible than having you "sub" reproducing drivers stuck in the main speaker. Sub frequencies don't need to "blend" into the soundstage - they're naturally omnidirectional and if you're crossing over low enough and steep enough the sub-bass will blend into the sounstage with nary a problem.
Cheers,
Presto
Though the sound seemed "generally satisfactory" with the arrangement I had as described above, I decided it wasn't "entirely satisfactory" -- even for this small "computer desktop" system. This system was never meant to compete with my main music system - just to be a vast improvement over the cheesy "2.1 in a box" system used for several years in this context.
Since I really do like the [single] HSU sub for this application, I decided to try a different pair of monitor speakers. Something that might reach a bit lower in the frequency range, so that I could bring the sub's low pass filter a bit lower. I'm now using a pair of Napa Acoustic NA-208S monitors (ported), and they do reach noticeably lower than the NHT Super Zeros, with still a very decent sound. Blending with the sub is indeed better (with sub set to come in at lower frequency), and the overall sound is fuller/more substantial. Though this "near field" arrangement still doesn't seem as fully "life size" as the main system, it certainly does come closer to it than with the Super Zeros.
"Sub localization" isn't a problem. It now feels like all the sound--including all low bass--is coming from the monitors.
It's still just a 2.1 system, and for this limited application will remain so, but with all these new components, speakers, cables, and tubes beginning to show some positive "burning in" results, I'm quite pleased with the sound, and feel I can now let the "upgrading" end here. Here's the entire "laptop desktop 2.1 speaker system" as it stands...
Digital output from laptop USB: DH Labs Silver Sonic digital USB
DAC: Schiit Bifrost
Analog interconnect from DAC to integrated amp: Audio Art IC-3
Hybrid integrated amp: Maverick Audio TubeMagic A1 (2 x NOS Raytheon 6AK5)
Speaker wire: Currently, just 12 gauge OFC wire, but I may decide at some point to use some Clear Day Double Shotguns like I'm enjoying in my main system. For now though, the current wires are sounding fine.
Monitor speakers: Napa Acoustic NA-208S
Subwoofer: HSU Research STF-1
Headphones: Sennheiser HD600 w/HD650 cable [Note: With this TubeMagic A1 hybrid amp, when using headphones, the output section is supposedly "purely tube driven". Whatever it is, it sounds very nice with the headphones.]
DAC, integrated amp, and subwoofer are all using Pangea AC-14SE power cords.
As mentioned, this "little" system isn't meant to compete with the large main system, but it has certainly graduated from "system through which computer can make noise" to "respectable second system" status. Music is sounding pretty good through it, and for this, I'm pleased. :)
BSI model 3 in Silver
These are mine. They are Ferrari Grigio Silverstone (Dark Grey Metallic). I'm expecting delivery today.
Well I was told they where mine but they look bright. Here is a picture of mine that arrived yesterday.
Hey guys. Thought I'd post a pic of the system I built a couple years ago. Yes, even the baffle is curved!!! 2nd order acoustic slopes between woofer and mid as well as mid and tweeter.Mine uses the Dayton RSS315, Scan Rev 15W, and Dayton Reference tweeter.
The resemblance to the woofer is uncanny, to say the least.
That BSI has the potential to be an amazing speaker, that's for sure. My Byzantium still thrills, though it's a true passive 3-way with that Dayton sub running to 350Hz.
It's a great and musical sub, and has excellent performance to well beyond 500Hz. The motor design uses Faraday rings for low inductance and low THD.
Here's the build thread for anyone interested.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?215703-RSS315HF-4-as-the-anchor-of-a-3-way
Edits: 08/14/12 08/14/12
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