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System sounds better without th sub-woofer on music sometimes...How many people here turn off the woofer for music and turn it back on for movies.
I have AVR's x-over set at 80hz. I also keep the fronts set to smalis there any harm at changing it to 60Hz? speakers are more than capable of doing 60Hz and lower. I wouldnt expect to run fullrange at loud volumes
with blu ray discs however...I listened to some AC/DC (black Ice album) at volume -22, and I realized how full and puchy the speakers are without a sub-woofer, they are pretty efficient too.
The sound was obviously loud but it didn't ever sound loud.
Edits: 05/15/12Follow Ups:
If your sub is poorly integrated with your mains, you will get bass coming out of time-sync with your mains, with gaps in the overall frequency response, and possibly out of phase. Also, if your sub is poorly placed, if you need room treatments, or if your overall system response results in a bloated midbass, things can sound worse with the sub turned on.
My system has Audyssey MultiEQ XT and an SVS AS-EQ1 (subwoofer equalizer/room correction), which gets me well-integrated bass and a flat frequency response in the bass and midbass. (AVRs with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 have the same ability to produce tighter and better-integrated bass as the equipment I have--and other manufacturers have systems that do the same thing).
I have also found trusting your own hearing even if location isn't where the mfr. recommends.(Typically corner?)
Without specific room treatments and/or anti-node, moving my REL around to where it sounds natural led to being behind my listening position.
Crossing over low-30hz and I'm adj gain like the volume of the amp.
Probably not the "ideal" setup on paper, but it sounds(or not sounds?)like
whats expected-disappears,bass"floats" around the room, immediately heard if I turn it off, etc.
Corner placement was almost acceptable except didn't get the "floating"
sensation if that makes any sense.
A remote for the gain would be nice. Seeing some mfrs offering them on their top model.
2 or more would be ideal.
Edits: 05/16/12
A subwoofer system properly setup is definitely better then just small monitors that are 3db down at 70hz.
Probably most home subwoofer systems are not setup properly and integrated
the way they should be.
The best advice I have read here is Ozzies
Run your loudspeakers full range straight out of your amp and run
the sub at the lowest setting it has..like 30hz or 40z
If you hear the sub all the time then its set to hot
If you hear the sub on human voice it is set to hot
You should only hear the sub on cannon shots/bomb explosions/etc
With music, if I had just one woofer, I'd likely never turn it on.
With film, probably so.
Best regards,
Jim Smith
My two channel music system (separate from my TV/movie system) consists of floor standing speakers and a subwoofer, and I have no intention of turning off the subwoofer.While rather old, and certainly modest by crazy audiophile standards, my NHT Model 2 floor standers (rated at 40Hz - 22kHz) work very well with my M&K 12" powered subwoofer.
I listen to a wide variety of music - including all forms of "Classical" (including pipe organ), to Jazz, and other types that often feature low bass frequencies.
While the NHT speakers do indeed go quite low (especially for an acoustic suspension system with dual 6.5" "woofers" in each tower), I often found myself somewhat dissatisfied with the depth and breadth of the bass. Once the subwoofer was added and carefully dialed in, the best way to describe the feeling was one of "relief". I no longer felt I needed to "will" the bass into fullness--it was just there, "with ease".
Though I'm quite happy with my current system for most of what I listen to (taking into consideration the size of my current listening room as well), I certainly wouldn't mind someday having an even more "full range" system (able to go even below my current 20Hz or so). After all, a big pipe organ can produce notes down to 16Hz. :)
In any event, I know that I don't want a system that only reaches down to a slightly rolled off 40Hz. Even if most of the music I listen to only goes down to around 40Hz, I want my system to be able to reach that point *with ease*, which means that it should be able to reach considerably lower without being rolled off.
Edits: 05/16/12
Agreed. Two systems, both have powered subs and they're never off. Sounds better when they're on regardless of what the system is playing.
of the need for a subwoofer going down to 20Hz even if the music is only down to 40Hz. The words 'ease' and 'will' explain it clearly. explanatory.
Cheers
Bill
Well, if you are going to turn off the sub for music, you will want to go into the AVR menu and set it for "no sub", and set the front L/R speakers to "large". This will cause there to be no crossover and the front speakers will receive the full range signal.
I also find music sometimes to sound better with no sub. But it depends on the bass capabilities of your front speakers, and the quality of the sub. Unless the front speakers are able to produce fairly prodigious bass, I don't think it will be very satisfying on large scale orchestral works or jazz that has deep bass. In that situation, you might want to use the sub and turn its volume low enough that it just provides a deep bass foundation to the music, without muddying up the mid bass. And also limit the highest frequency for the sub to maybe 80 hz.
The Cary 11a has movie and music modes as a remote switch. I set the movie mode to crossover at 80 Hz from a pair of KEF 104.2s to a pair of Velodyne HGS-15s with SMS-1; the music mode sets the 104.2s to large with no sub, and is used only with SACDs, because the Cary doesn't recognize LPCM and thus provides no bass management. The subs need to be integrated with the mains so well you are not aware of their existence, except when they do something the mains can't do like add that more felt than heard pedal note from a pipe organ. In my experience, the 104.2s have a greater sense of air when freed of LF duty. For HT, subs are indispensable.
db
Well integrated subs will no only provide lower and better bass response but also improve imaging (sound stage)
In my system I cross over at 32 hz and switching the subs off results in
smaller scale reproduction, and for classical music this is a no-no
What speakers do you have that are bass deficient ?
I find all subs to be a waste of space & money. Best buy a floor standing TLS speaker forget subs.
If the sub has a low Q so it doesn't ring and the crossover is well designed the sound will be superior with the woofer. I added 18" woofers to a small MTM that was very good down to the mid 40s and I got deeper bass, tighter bass and cleaner lower mids. It was win, win(except for the size of the darn woofer boxes and the extra cost involved).
Can you reveal the brand/construction of your subs/amps/cross-overs?
Thanks,
Jeremy
Sorry, subs are custom designed by the designer of the SEAS Froy 3 main speakers. And the crossover is a custom passive design by him also. About the only thing I can tell you is the drivers are the same ones used in the last 4 box Snell A design done by Kevon Voecks, now of Revel.
As is usually the case when all of us start out using subs, we run them at too high a level relative to the mains. Welcome to the club. :)
I also suspect that the sub's low pass is causing some localization given the use of a single sub. Lowering the Xover frequency can help. Having two (or more) subs is better still.
Most vintage speakers have limited power handling (40 watts) 3-20 watts each driverso running the mains full range will blow the woofer on BD audio tracks.
Somebody told me running full range will tear the passive radiator due to too much back pressure.
The sub doesn't have a LPF switch, I have the X-over on the sub set to 60Hz and I actually have the volume knob on the sub turned low compared to most people, I have it around about..the 9:30 clock position.
I think I need another sub pawn shops have plenty of used sub-woofers.
I once saw a working Cervin vega pro audio passive sub at a thrift once but the thing was almost as big as a subaru!
Most vintage speakers have limited power handling (40 watts)
Most? Only the crappy ones. What we used to call "brown goods". Even the $105 Advent was paired with Phase Linear amps back in the day. Obviously, you're not talking about AR, KLH, Gale, Dahlquist, KEF, IMF, Bose, Magnepan, ADS, Altec, Klipsch, and dozens of others.
Somebody told me running full range will tear the passive radiator due to too much back pressure.
That's pretty funny.
I actually have the volume knob on the sub turned low compared to most people
You shouldn't be able to "hear" the sub at all - until there is really first or second octave bass.
...pawn shops have plenty of
I think that's the problem.
That problem overflows to thrift stores loaded with one note thud junk subs.
Match decent speakers with a decent sub, get 'em in tune with the room and there's no need to ever turn that sub off!
The speakers arent Bass-deficient, I have the sub for movies and for when I Want Club-bass.....
I think its a room issue mostly since if I crawl to one part of the room it sounds more integrated, problem is ther's no place to plug the sub-woofer on that side of the room.
Soon we will be moving somewhere else. A more modern place with more outlets.
As for the power handling I dont even think most AVRS even do a full clean 40 watts a side at max volume and plus nobody listens at full tilt anyway.
I think I might get a second sub sience mty room absorbs bass in certain areas.
I dont listen to classical music except for the occasional Hans zimmerish score and I dont care for jazz or most of the "music" audio snobs listen to.
My room is also pretty small for my speakers too. Most people's listening rooms tend to be double the size of mine.
The next sub willbe bigger than "8" if I can help it. The woofers and radiators on the speakers are also "8" I think my sub is too little.
You're hearing the upper reaches of the sub affecting the lower mids of your mains. Try the mains running full range and the low pass of the sub at a much lower freq. And if at all possible, go with an 18 Db / oct slope on the sub.
You don't tell us what the fronts are.. so it's hard to give any good advice. But if the fronts are floor standing speakers set them to large, and set the crossover at about 40.. also what sub, what AVR what brand of speakers, brand of sub ? As I said too little information to give accurate advise.
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