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So, I'm building a set of speakers using:
8 Dayton Audio DC160-8: (4 in each cabinet)
Power handling: 50 watts RMS/75 watts max • VCdia: 1-3/8" • Le: 2.34 mH • Impedance: 8 ohms • DC resistance: 6.7 ohms • Frequency response: 30-4,000 Hz • Magnet weight: 15 oz. • Fs: 34 Hz • SPL: 88 dB 1W/1m • Vas: 0.87 cu. ft. • Qms: 3.47 • Qes: 0.36 • Qts: 0.33 • Xmax: 3.15 mm
2 Usher 9950-20:
Power handling: 10 watts RMS/15 watts max (full range signal) • VCdia: 1-1/8" • Impedance: 8 ohms • Re: 4.7 ohms • Frequency range: 1,500-20,000 Hz • Fs: 560 Hz • SPL: 88 dB 2.83V/1m
Crossover at 2500
I will be powering each with 265 watts rms, per channel.
Does anyone see an issue with this set-up?
"Buy some horns, you know you wanna"
Sorry, I can't find the info in this thread.
What is your budget for speakers?
Would you consider saving for a month or two to get $100 or $200 more into it? Sometimes there are price range "thresholds" you need to reach just to get out of low-fi terriroty. Quality mid-fi territory (which is pleasing sound to most people) is still affordable. Real audiophile quality kits can cost anywhere from $500 to... well, thousands.
Also, is the prosound amp your only option?
Also, are you using a sub? If so, have you thought about pairing some high efficiency drivers in a nice 12" + horn 2-way prosound speaker? Or maybe there is a kit like this, or some sort of pre-fab design.
I appreciate people have budgets especially nowadays, but sometimes it's better to save up a bit and get something that will satisfy, instead of getting half-way-there money wise only to be dissapointed.
$300 on disappointment makes no sense when $200 or $300 more could get you there... Think about budget and get back to me.
Also, if you want slam, 2.1 is THE way to go without breaking the bank and using large 3-way enclosures. I love 2.1, 3.1, 4.1 way systems because I love SEALED BOX midbass drivers for tight, fast accurate bass with no acoustic overhang (or very little anyways).
Sealed box midbass + sealed or ported sub + crossover low enough = awesome if done correctly.
While surfing around today I'll keep your dilemna in mind and if I see any potential solutions I will give you a shout here.
We're not trying to discourage you. We're trying to stop you from going down the garden path which oftens leads to wasted money and frustration with the hobby. Trial and error might work to learn how to paint a wall, but not in this game. Trial and error will lead you nowhere and drive you mad.
I appreciate your help, but the budget is what it is. It's a shame it isn't higher, but I'm going to try to make this work. I'm not discounting the suggestions here, it's just that there is no other option at this point, and these speakers are getting made. I'm sorry I didn't check back sooner, but Stale, had more or less turned me off of suggestion on this current project. I appreciate your advice, and apologize for not noticing your comment sooner.
...he's dead set on reinventing the wheel, and no amount of advice gained through experience is going to deter him from his lofty quest. You can lead a horse to water as they say.
I wouldn't say reinventing the wheel, but I am going to build these speaker with the current budget. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, lesson learned.
My head Hertz. ;)
How did you arrive at the crossover frequency? Are you designing the network and have the measurement equipment to measure the drivers to input into a design program? Or worse yet, are you buying an off-the-shelf pre-fab unit?
I was using the numbers given by the manufacturer as a guide, 2500 just seemed straight-forward. I would be building the crossover.
"Buy some horns, you know you wanna"
...will go a long way in determining the optimum crossover frequency. It's not an arbitrary decision.
You are correct, and I'm not going to construct this speaker anymore. Should have researched into it more, before posting. Thanks for your help.
"Buy some horns, you know you wanna"
...Tech Talk forum. You'll get plenty of worthwhile suggestions and in the event this project is doable, you may be able to get someone like Wolf to design the crossover for you. DIY is a lot of fun, sometimes exasperating, always instructive, and ultimately very satisfying. Go for it!
And there is no shame in getting a kit designed by someone else.
In fact, getting a kit and a measuring suite then learning to measure from a "known good" design can really speed up the learning curve.
When you're doing a new design from scratch with new software, it's often hard to tell when you're doing things correctly. With a known end result, you can quickly get yourself back on track and find out where you went wrong.
I wish I would have done this 20 years ago... I chose to learn things the hard way!
...never quite figuring out why my speakers always sounded crappy. Then I discovered CALSOD and finally began to figure it out. Even though I didn't have measuring equipment for SPL and had to use factory charts, at least my speakers began to sound decent. Then I discovered Dennis Murphy, crossover guru extraordinaire, and my speakers REALLY started sounding good!
I'll also vouch for Dennis.
I used one of his crossover suggestions for some Dayton Classic woofers and it turned a so-so speaker into one with smooth midrange performance.
Now I know why it hertz! ;)
Dennis Murphy, John Krutke, John Kreskovsky, Jeff Bagsby... and many others. Without guys like these who post their knowledge and learnings on the net for the rest of us DIYers...
Where would be be?
Wandering in the dark I suppose...
We'd be tweaking and tweaking and spending a small fortune on crossover components until we got it right.
Well, I did a little more research, with the help of some of those guys you mentioned, and decided to go with a different design. Here's what I've come up with.
MCM 8" Carbon Fiber: 2 for each speaker wired in parallel.
Power Capacity: 75W/150W RMS/peak
Sensitivity: 92dB (W/M)
Frequency response: 30Hz ~ 8KHz
Vas: 80.46 (liters)
Power handling: 90 watts RMS/140 watts max • VCdia: 1" • Impedance: 4 ohms • Re: 2.9 ohms • Frequency response: 1,500-40,000 Hz • Fs: 630 Hz • SPL: 92.4 dB 2.83V/1m • Dimensions: Overall diameter: 4.125", Cutout diameter: 3.125", Depth: 2.20".
I'm going to use a Linkiwitz-Riley 2nd order 2-way design, crossed over at 3900Hz or 3300hz (still on the fence). Chosen due to manufacturer measurements and suggestions.
I'm having to go all out with this design because it's going to be powered by a 330watt per channel amp (at 4ohm), with a pre-amp without a sub out. Therefore, these speakers must do everything. Specifically these speakers would be powered by the Yamaha MX-1000U amp, and I'm not sure these speakers can handle it. I keep getting conflicting information about what constitutes a speakers power handling capability.
Suggestions, while knowing that, at least for this project, I won't be independently measuring the components due to lack of funds/equipment. I designed the box using Bass Box Pro 6, basic crossover design using basic calculators and some info from PCD.
Here ya go. All the work's been done.
" I won't be independently measuring the components due to lack of funds/equipment. I designed the box using Bass Box Pro 6, basic crossover design using basic calculators and some info from PCD."
No offense, but textbook calculators just don't cut it. I would get a kit like the one DH recommended, or one from Madisound, whether a Zaphaudio.com kit or otherwise. You'll get much more bang for your buck.
There is no "calculator method shortcut" that can replace proper measurements. If you can't afford the measuring equipment, why waste money on a shoot-in-the-dark design?
Just my 2 cents.
how are these kit any different than what I'm doing? The measurements taken are for one off's. Each kit isn't tested for component adherence to the original.
I'm not trying to be difficult, just curious as to how going off manufacturer's specs is any different than going off of the original design specs for components in the kits? I mean, I'm still not measuring either way.
I am also concerned as I cannot find a kit for <$350 that can handle the wattage from the amp I'm using. Namely the MX-1000U.
I do thank you all for your suggestions, if I come across as anything but grateful, I apologize.
No, no. We're probably coming across as brash and pig headed.
Thing is, there is a big difference between a kit and what you're attempting to do. You're thinking that you are going off manufacturers data (type test) and so it the guy who designed the kit. Yes and no.
The kit designer IS relying on tolerances of the drivers used. However, the designer of the kit DID do measurements of not just the drivers all alone, but the drivers in the intended cabinet, and the drivers TOGETHER. Only after getting close enough to his design goal will the designer start "tweaking" the sound (tayloring, voicing) to what he thinks is best.
The thing to understand here is that a speaker does NOT give the same acoustic response no matter what cabinet you put it in. The baffle size, shape, edge radius, driver spacing to edges... all these thingsa affect frequency response. Response on an infinite baffle is not going to be the same.
So, no - the kit designer is NOT using manufacturers data at all. He is measuring like speaker companies do and competent DIY guys do.
You can spend 20 years trying to master "textbook" speaker design without measuring and never get more than 40% of the way there. Some guys think it's close enough, well, if "getting sound" is the goal, then it's close enough.
To get audiophile quality sound with studio monitor level flatness (and appropriate baffle step compensation) you need to know a fair amount of theory and have some good consistent measuring practices.
The kits are already pre-designed and done using the required measurements. So, yes, there is a big difference between what you're calling a design process and how most good quality kits are designed.
The premise of "textbook" speaker design and using manufacturer curves is simply based on a number of misconceptions and false assumptions that can only be overcome by learning the correct way to go about things.
Get the book by David Weems below. It's the best $12 you'll ever spend if you want to build speakers DIY style.
I see what you're saying with the kits, and I have thought about using one. Unfortunately I have not been able to find a specific one that will handle the wattage and meet budgetary constraints.
What I have decided to do is to use independent data collected on the drivers + incorporate similar designs I have seen in the kits. This project is more of a learning experience for me, as it's the most in depth I've gone with regard to DIY. I suppose I'm not looking to be perfect, just yet.
Thanks for the information, and I will check out that book, it does look like something that would help.
will probably sound brash but is in your best interest.
Based on your questions and obsession with data, I would say that you have no idea what you are doing.
Amplifier wattage has little to do with speaker wattage.
Speaker wattage on paper has little to do what they can take in real life.
Amp wattage often has no correlation to what amp can drive.
Speaker selection is more of a room/preference issues, and the least power capacity.
On axis response does not necessarily translate in good in room and off axis response, two speakers that on paper look good may match terribly in a real life...
Not knowing what you are trying to accomplish presents a problem to answer it completely but it is obvious that you are on the wrong path..
I suggest do not buy anything before reading faq section and research this and other boards and then ask more meaningful question.
unhelpful. It is the influx of, and down right contradictory, information I have found that leads me to the questions I have posed.
I certainly understand that raw numbers and real-life are separate, however, specifications are there for a reason. Speakers have a threshold for wattage, and though there is no good information on how much a specific driver can take, I'm trying to at least choose ones that are less likely to have issues.
These speakers aren't meant to sit in a specific room, at a specific angle, with a specific amount of sound dampening on the wall, with three specifically arranged candles burning with wicks at a specific rate and lumen intensity (chiding on the latter). These will be speakers that could end up in a variety of rooms/positions with any manner of objects strewn throughout.
The components I have decided upon, which haven't been mentioned, were chosen based independent measurements after going back and doing more research. I will, in fact, be using an active crossover with the speaker build to decide on a specific crossover-point. This will be an auditory test, which is far more important than anything else I could use to measure.
What I am trying to accomplish, is to build a set of speakers that will let me practice and test knowledge I have gained through research. Trial an error, if you will, that will hopefully sound as good or better than mass-market speakers I can buy for the same amount.
Lastly, and perhaps most important to this response. If the object of your post was to help, you have managed to fail most spectacularly. I am not posing questions here without doing my own research at the same time. I do not value random people's opinions so highly as that. In the future, it would be better to approach a persons query with helpful information, as opposed to critiquing their choice/method of research.
"Speakers have a threshold for wattage, ... I'm trying to at least choose ones that are less likely to have issues."
What issues speakers of nominal wattage close to your amplifier rating will not have that others of smaller (or larger) will not?
"were chosen based independent measurements " means squat if they sound like crap, or are incompatible with other equipment..
"test knowledge I have gained through research" as I said, based on your questions, that knowledge is questionable.
"as good or better than mass-market speakers I can buy for the same amount."
Ain't gonna happen, by the time you include cost of the equipment needed to make and test speakers, not to mention your time. If you are doing it for fun etc. that is another story.
Finally, "These will be speakers that could end up in a variety of rooms/positions with any manner of objects strewn throughout."
speaks volume of your incompetence in this subject. Anyone who spent even the minimum effort in this hobby is aware that speaker that works well in any environment does not exist.
So if all the above in your opinion is not an advice, I can be even clearer:
Stay with kits developed by others, as others noted, Zaph and others noted above, read speaker design books, read Madisound and other speaker board before you attempt to design your own speakers.
for you to understand that I'm not trying to create the perfect speaker. I'm simply trying to do the best that I can with the funds I can allot.
Issues of speakers:
How about not burning out, for one. I have read reviews on this specific amp that said people did such with certain speakers.
The knowledge I previously mentioned came from such sites as Zaph audio and audioheuristics to name a few. Is that satisfactory for you?
As for your asinine comment suggesting that no speaker works well in every environment. I believe that is entirely subjective. You must be completely delusional if you believe that you cannot enjoy speakers without them being specifically tailored to your listening environment. Well, actually, I see that you own a pair of planar's, my own experience with Maggie's does allow me to understand where you might be coming from. They have an extremely narrow operating window, perhaps that's why you are so biased.
I believe I did mention I was doing it for fun, I suppose it may have been too subtle for you, for that I must apologize.
Again, I will reiterate as your reading comprehension seems rather selective: I cannot afford kits that are capable of performing the task with the equipment I have outlined. I also want to use this project as a learning experience. Do you understand now?
More importantly: Do you even build your own speakers? Your profile suggests not, or at least you may have failed in your endeavors. If such is the case, I'm terribly sorry if you have decided to give up on your quest.
" So if all the above in your opinion is not an advice, I can be even clearer:"
Ahh, yes, and here we are. Your so called clarification has not informed me of anything that has not already been stated. Thank, for your input, however, you are late to the party, and as I suggested earlier have been no help to me. Well, that's not entirely true, you have made me realize the extent to which the idiom "a grain of salt" can be stretched.
"How about not burning out, for one."
You can burn almost tweeter with almost any amplifier, and by feeding low enough signal you can damage woofer with much lower wattage than listed. So, first you need to determine intended application...
"The knowledge I previously mentioned came from".
It seems you were not great student.
"...no speaker works well in every environment. I believe that is entirely subjective." Geez, if you believe that you are completely delusional.
"...delusional if you believe that you cannot enjoy speakers..."
I can enjoy music on portable radio, I can enjoy it on second rate console from 50s etc., hell, I enjoy Victrola, and I can enjoy it in many ways and forms but that does not mean that each way it sounds as good as it could or should.
"...my own experience with Maggie's..."
LFT-VIIIs are significantly different from Maggies, you have shown your lack of knowledge again. Not to mention that I have vintage AR in a second system, and owned about 15 sets of speakers, and auditioned many many during last 20 years.
" I cannot afford kits that are capable of performing .." If you can not afford kit you can even less afford to design it on your own, for reasons that I explained before. Actually the cheapest way to accomplish what you want is buying used.
"I also want to..." As others pointed out, having known, relatively good reference that you can tweak is great beginners tool.
"Do you even build your own speakers?"
Based on your attitude and composition, I would say that I had built my own speakers while you were still using diapers, but to be more precise in early 80s using Dynaudio, Vifa, Seas and Kef drivers, winding my own inductors, building my own cabinets... (not only for stereo but even bass bins for my bass guitar). After coming to US, I neither had time nor need to do that, except fixing few speakers, but hopefully when I retire I will be able to play.
"...and as I suggested earlier have been no help to me..."
Well, "A small mind is obstinate. A great mind can lead and be led." It seems that you have had made your mind.
You have completely missed my points, but I applaud your ability to make such spectacularly snide comments as an ESL.
If the culmination of your 20 years of auditions has led to your current audio line-up, then I suggest you may have wasted the majority.
My attitude and "composition" as you put it, has more to do with the tone of your responses than my diaper wearing time-frame.
Lastly, it is difficult to take someone seriously when they've spent so much money on speaker wire and interconnects. It would not surprise me to hear that you've bought stands to hold your speaker wire above the ground. (As those were the new snake oil product when I was a contributor to the forum)
Your responses haven't been completely off-base, however, so perhaps you have redeemed yourself slightly. I had considered purchasing used speakers, but that would negate the enjoyment I could get from building my own, learning as I go.
Perhaps it is simply a matter of an age difference here, as you tried to bring into the discussion with your last comment. I, as a younger man, have different priorities, quality of hearing and lack the bitterness that years of misguided audiophile adherence has caused. This, of course, is merely conjecture and perhaps totally incorrect.
Typicall arogance from a clueless.
My system is now slightly different than posted, I should update it, but tell me what do you find so wrong with it?
"it is difficult to take someone seriously when they've spent so much money on speaker wire and interconnects"
If you look around this board, there are probably more of those who have the exact oposite opinion. I once thought that wire do not make difference (while I was young and "knew" everything) And btw, I bought those when they were much cheaper and with huge dicounts, probably less that what you paid for your Monsters, dont even start me with your power conditiner (and if you do not believe that wire can make difference why bother with Monsters)
"lack the bitterness that years of misguided audiophile adherence has caused"
Of course, as most of your posts and conclusions in this tread, that has nothing to do with reality but it tells a lot about you.
BTW, I could be speaking chinese and that would not make my knowledge any less worthy. And although english is my second language I can uderstand it better than most naturaly born americans. (I can probably even write it better than most americans when I take care).
I apologize, as I've been gone and working on my speaker project to comment on your reply. I don't want to argue, and some of my comments have simply been jabs. I understand the point you are trying to make, but as I said before, I'm not trying to build a technically superior speaker.
I don't actually have an issue with your system, except to say that I do not believe that speaker cable and interconnects make enough of a difference to justify the exorbitant price.
I am building the speaker based on manufacturers specs, and we'll see how it turns out. In the future I will purchase some test equipment, but at this time I'm going with manufacturer numbers and auditory testing.
Hell, I'm not even sure why I'm responding now, except that I feel as thought I've treated you poorly, and I'm not particularly enamored with having done so. Or it could be that I've been drinking and have decided to let it go. *shrugs
"And although english is my second language I can uderstand it better than most naturaly born americans. (I can probably even write it better than most americans when I take care)."
Youse gots that rite!!!
It's no wonder that Americans are looked down upon in Europe. Most of them can more-or-less fluently speak three languages. Many of us here can barely speak one.
...will be at or below 4 ohms. Hope there's a beefy amp in the mix.
The net impedance will be 4 ohms...and the amp is 330 watts RMS per channel at 4 ohms.
With DC resistance of 6 Ohms I guess that minimum impedance is about 7 Ohms, with two drivers in parallel resulting impedance would be around 3.5 Ohms. But, I could not find impedance curves to confirm.
Read about your woofer choice here (scroll to bottom).
For the tweeter, I don't like the hump-then-dip combo centered just over 2k, where you'll notice the 3rd order harmonic distortion climbs up too. Could be the sign of internal reflections or something else going on. One user said that they had build quality issues with these as well, but that's just one source.
If you plan to do baffle step compensation, using 4 woofs in series/parallel, you might benefit from a more efficient tweeter as well.
Do you have a measurement mic and measurement suite? If not, I say get a kit. You can't go off of manufacturers response curves anyways.
Thanks for that link. I won't be building this speaker anymore, as it certainly isn't going to be able to do what I need.
"Buy some horns, you know you wanna"
...let us know what your design goals / end result is supposed to be and we can recommend a battle plan / kit path that will give you the best bang for your buck. Also knowing what kind of amp(s) you use and music material you prefer can help. The speaker best for chamber music or spanish guitar may not cut it with full out orchestral or heavy metal! ;)
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