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In Reply to: RE: Anyone tried bi-wiring PSB Imagine T's? posted by jlandreth on November 11, 2010 at 05:35:58
adjustment that can be made to a system, but it can be an economical means of improving the performance. Certainly you should seek to remove the stock jumpers, as even replacing them with a higher quality jumper wire can have a beneficial influence. As an example, see my article about replacing jumpers in integrated amps:
http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=261
The principle in discussion of single wiring and utilization of jumpers is similar to that in discussion of upgraded jumpers for integrated amps. Failure to pay attention to such details is one reason why many audiophiles never quite find that elusive satisfactory sound. I find cables to be the most overlooked and despised element in audio system building.
I have tested single wiring vs. bi-wiring on virtually every speaker with the capacity I have ever owned and used/reviewed. I have not found any speaker to date which did not yield superior performance when bi-wired versus single wired. One may have to find the correct cables to obtain the optimum performance from said speaker, but I have never preferred to opt out of bi-wiring. The influence is so profound on higher end rigs that I automatically request shotgun cabling or multiple sets of speaker cables so as to be able to bi-wire.
As a rig improves in quality one can more easily hear the distinction in sound quality from bi-wiring. Some claim that the coherence of the speaker is harmed through bi-wiring, but I do not believe this has been demonstrated. If someone has tests which prove this, I would like to see them. I am open to being informed on that point. It is my experience that a speaker which is bi-wired has superior resolution, dynamics and involves the listener more than through single wiring.
Currently I am working with a high end speaker system which accepts tri-wiring. I wouldn't dream of diminishing the potential of such a speaker by passing the signal through two sets of posts on the way to the drivers. I'm not out to make the easiest system to work with, I'm out to obtain the best possible sound - or put in other words, to achieve the most pleasurable experience of listening to my music.
Others may disagree, but I am not interested in arguing about this topic.
Follow Ups:
Just connect the single cable to the center pair of posts (mid filter).
while one may connect via the Midrange posts, that does not ensure that the owner will conclude it is the best sound. While technically it may be more direct, the resultant sound might be preferred via attachment to the bass posts, or possibly even the treble posts.
Don't laugh at that suggestion. Typically when I have used single speaker cables and jumpers the drivers receiving the direct signal perform better than those being jumped. When the cable is switched, the improvement is on the other drivers.
It's not a difficult conclusion, then, to make up one's mind that there is no need for diminished performance via using only one cable. With bi or tri-wiring one can realize a more consistent performance from the speaker.
If limited to onely one set of speaker cables it does make sense to use the Mid posts and not run through two sets of posts for any drivers. But one would have to listen to the permutations to determine what sounded best. Or, one could conceivably use two sets of jumper wires from the posts with the speaker cables. Might be tough but with determination should be possible and avoid the two sets of posts problem.
It is abundantly clear to my ears that utilizing multiple sets of speaker cables is a valid way to improve performance. :)
"The principle in discussion of single wiring and utilization of jumpers is similar to that in discussion of upgraded jumpers for integrated amps. Failure to pay attention to such details is one reason why many audiophiles never quite find that elusive satisfactory sound. I find cables to be the most overlooked and despised element in audio system building."
How would you know that failure to pay attention to "such details" as jumpers and single wiring is "one reason why many audiophiles never quite find that elusive satisfactory sound"? Have you done a survey?
I quote the next passage to show how you fail to apply the same standards of evidence to your own opinions that you do to others. When your reading of your experience is challenged, you then ask for proof, which you did not for your own interpretations of your experiences.
"As a rig improves in quality one can more easily hear the distinction in sound quality from bi-wiring. Some claim that the coherence of the speaker is harmed through bi-wiring, but I do not believe this has been demonstrated. If someone has tests which prove this, I would like to see them. I am open to being informed on that point. It is my experience that a speaker which is bi-wired has superior resolution, dynamics and involves the listener more than through single wiring."
Ah yes indeed! "If someone has tests which prove this, I would like to see them. I am open to being informed on that point." You know what? That's what I would like to see from those who claim that decent interconnects (at line level), that proper gauge speaker cables somehow sound different, and that buy-wiring makes an audible difference.
I would agree that a "claim that the coherence of the speaker is harmed through bi-wiring" needs real testing, but then so does your opinion that "As a rig improves in quality one can more easily hear the distinction in sound quality from bi-wiring." That looks like an extraordinary claim to me.
"Others may disagree, but I am not interested in arguing about this topic."
I'll go along with Kal this far: me neither. I would like to see some evidence that applies to 10-12 foot speaker cables suitable for high fidelity applications though. It hasn't been forthcoming.
We do know that cables can make an audible difference under some circumstances. Differences in resistance can make an audible difference due to differences in the levels and the frequency responses into a speaker load but that hardly justifies expensive wires. Very long cables may cause an audible loss of high frequencies due to inductance. As well, it seems some amps are very sensitive to capacitive loads, but I would want such an amp. Mine is not.
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
you get your results. ;)
In his system, to his ears, biwiring most likely would NOT make any difference whatsoever.
It's a shame though, since Paradigm Signature speakers must be pretty revealing, to let him hear differences in amps, cables etc. I'm not familiar with Quad amp/preamp, and Rotel CD player is of course just what it is, i.e. doesn't help matters.
It's mostly the mental block, and this pony is probably just too old to learn any new tricks. Or, more to the point, unlearn the old ones.
Paradigm Signature S2--rated Class A Limited Low Frequency Extension by Stereophile.
Now, that you don't have your Kef speakers anymore, what are you using? For some reason, you seem reluctant to say . . .
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
"Paradigm Signature S2--rated Class A Limited Low Frequency Extension by Stereophile."
That isn't exactly making a good case for the quality of the ears at Stereophile who made that decision. A decision that is made by one person incidentally. One guy reviewed them, one guy has the power to make the list. And it was the same guy.
Indeed I do, and my system sounds just fine.
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
... here's huge difference: his remarks are based on listening experience, and yours - on ridiculous beliefs, untrained/impaired hearing, and all-encompassing cheapness.
you know, the ones you replaced your old Kefs with?
Is there some reason you're afraid to say?
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
I have experimented quite a bit with speaker placement,the port plugs and room treatments (ASC tube traps and the 8x48 ASC panels).My room is pretty large so I can move the PSB's well in to the room (and I'm not married!)Initially getting smooth bass was a problem but I've cured that.Mids and highs are pretty darn good.I still hear what sounds like a cabinet resonance with the PSB's.The speakers are VERY revealing of slight shifts in speaker placement,tube rolling,and cables.
"The speakers are VERY revealing of slight shifts in speaker placement,tube rolling,and cables."
Let's take these individually.
Changing speaker placement (and/or listener placement) virtually always makes some audible difference. There's no mystery there.
I'm not into tubes, but I understand changing tubes can make an audible difference.
Unless you use long lengths or switch small and large wires, changing cables should make very little difference, far less than changing the speaker or listener placement by a small amount. But if you develop a preference for this or that cable, my advice is get what you prefer.
I still can't get carcass93 to reveal what speakers he now uses. I wonder why.
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
What is most assuring about this post is that it is based on Mr. Schroeder's listening experience. But then I read Mr. Rubinson, who claims to have had a comparable listening experience and heard no improvement. So what are we to think? Two respectable reviewers, whom we presume have had comparably broad listening experience, come to diametricallly opposed conclusions.
One possible conclusion is that one man's "profound" is another's eh? That is often the case in audio though not usually among serious reviewers. We could also conclude that one of them is lying, deaf, or full of heifer dust. I'm afraid the most likely conclusion is that we see revealed before us the depressing possibility at the heart of audio reviewing and opinion: you can't believe anything that you read, even if it's from an Authority. You have to go listen for yourself and come home a Schroeder or a Rubinson. I'm a Schroeder myself.
I'll join the camp that has witnessed improvement from bi-wiring. Not an oh my but superior in the three instances I tried it.
ET
"Others may disagree, but I am not interested in arguing about this topic. "Me, neither. ;-) This topic is a huge waste of Internet bandwidth.
Kal
Edits: 11/11/10
Actually, insofar as you and Schroeder disagree with each other about something that is pretty obvious to you both, I don't think it's a waste of time at all. It's actually very revealing.
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