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In Reply to: RE: Near Field and far Field Speakers posted by Duke on December 14, 2009 at 13:32:41
Hello Duke !
Do you recall all the design work you did on my dual subwoofers ?
I used your suggestions for an extended bass shelf alignment, and I have output down to 18 hz, actually I can still feel it at 14 hz.
But at 18 hz it is probably 3 db down, going by ear.
I have recently bewcome single again, and have parties at my home.
I have a 23 year old dancer coming over with her dancer friends(I am 55) and they want something to really SLAM, like they hear in the dance club!
The ceramic tile in my room supports dancing.
I want to raise the tuning Duke, for more PUNCH on dance music ?
I THINK you said to use 2 - 7 inch ports, 3 inch PVC in each sub ?
I have 2 ports in each sub now, around 18 inches long, tuned way low.
The drivers are the cadence wild beast 15 inch woofers, so perhaps you stored it ?
The boxes are around 8 cu ft, if I recall ?
I will keep the longer port tubes around, in case I dont like the boom boxes ?
But right now, I just want to party with my little 23 year old Dancer, and her bi sexual friends.
Call it a "mid life crisis" or whatever, I call it FUN !!!
Good to hear from you again Duke, and thank you again for all the great design work you did for me !!!
Chris
Follow Ups:
.
I had 2 x dual 18 push pull subs.......... Lots of pulse and pressure, but not slam (crossed at either 100hz@24db or 80hz@18db).
Slam was either a w-bin (7ft3 area of mouth, best kickdrum I've ever had) or 4 x 15" woofers (in additional to the subs).
What is funny is I ran a 15" as baffle step (with inductor only). At low volume hooking it up there was no audible difference, but the louder you got, the more the difference the extra 15" made (like old stone temple pilots).
That is the kick drum that hits you in the chest. That's the 100-200hz range.
It might be time to stop the "retail thing" and start doing the active crossover tri or quad amplifier.
Norman
Some good ideas Norman.
I have almost enough "kick" now, for my room, just want to raise box tuning, get a little more.
The Cadence Wild Beast 15 inch drivers have a pretty good amount of X Max, and I have enough power to take them there.
Honestly, even when the room is quivering from 20 hz tones, I still have x max left.
I hear what ya say about kick drums, my old Speaker Lab K corner horns did a great job up there.
I am using a rane electric crossover at 24 db per octave, with two pro sound amps driving the pair of subs.
I already have the new ports cut at 7 1/2 inches, just wait for my kids to come help me flip the subs over, to change the ports.
It MAY very well turn out to be a boom box, and so be it ?
As long as it goes boom where I want it to ?
Hmm, changing tuning from 20 to 30hz ?
That won't add slam at all, if anything you may have more sluggish bass.
I know that a 30hz tuning was much better to my ears than a 40hz tuning. Quicker and deeper.
I've never heard a 20hz tuning or lower, so I've no idea.
Slam is also integration with the mids (time alignment stuff).
But running 4 x 15's from 500hz to 80hz, then running 4 x 18's from 80hz to 27hz (6th order tuned boosted subsonic at 27hz), that had massive output (along with 110db 1'x2' mid horn and piezo at 5khz). I hadn't realized how much louder speakers will go by removing those really deep stuff. My current 15's start bouncing at a much lower volume than they should (low freq garbage). My kids said "you know when you told up not to blast the stereo, we didn't realize it was for our protection." lol, that system had slam.
The again, the w-bin I had upstairs had slam, but it also lacked the really low stuff (probably rolled from 150hz to -6db near 60hz then gone), but that was the best kick drum. Watching 5th element, the bullets when the car cars were shooting at Bruce Willis' taxi had impact.
Norman
No Norm, what I have now is an extended bass shelf alignment, box is tuned way down low, below 20 hz.
This gives flat bass to 18 hz, but at the sacrifice of midband punch.
I am now going to tune to about 20 - 24 hz instead.
With an EBS alignment, according to Duke, if I understand him correectly, is extended deep bass that works well with corner/wall placememnt.
The corners/walls fill in the bass roll off from the ebs alignment, making the bass of higher quality.
It worked well, and I can always go back, since I will keep the curent ports.
Now, i am looking for max bass impact for dance music, and so I am going to try a higher box tuning, and a theil alignment, as opposed to an ebs.
The thiel/small alignment gives port gain, the EBS does not.
I THINK that is the way Duke explained it ?
He is the expert here, not me.
Changing tuning from 20hz to 24hz, you would not gain any more slam than you have now.
Norman
I am tuned lower now then 20 hz, I will have to ask Duke ?
Go ahead and shorten the ports however much you want.
To give you a few data points to go by, trimming both ports to 9" long would tune to about 20Hz; trimming both ports to 4.5" would tune to about 25 Hz; and trimming to 2" would tune to about 30 Hz.
Party on, my friend!
Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.
I put the new, shorter ports in there, and bass got boomy and lumpy.
Lost SOME really low bass I had in spades before!
Don't like the conventional tuning, going back to the extended bass shelf tuning you originally designed.
You were right Duke, corner placement of a subwoofer sounds better with the EBS tuning.
Wonder IF I could play with the ports to tune the EBS a little better ?
With the posts you originally designed( the ones about 18 inches long) I get flat bass to 20 hz, and 3 db down at 18 hz
Duke, what parameter are we trying to maximize to get "punchy" dance club and Rap type bass ?
What is the frequency of this chit ?
My subs are both in corners, the room is approx 20 by 24
What about corner gain ?
I only use my subs for watching TV and movies, and now for dancing.
My main speakers do just fine with musical bass.
I really dont want to use a subsonic filter on the woofers, if I can help it ?
I cut the 2 - 3 inch pvc ports to 7 1/2 with a 45 degree angle on ONE end of ports, a "poor mans flare" I learned from YOU!
Honestly, with the longer 18 inch ports in an EBS alignment, low bass was almost scary!
I have over 2000 rms watts to each of the 2 subs, and the low bass is simply staggering, far exceeding 2 SVS Ultra cylinder subs I had previously.
But the upper bass "kick" I am looking for currently is missing, you know, that pounding "club bass" sound ?
Hopefully, by raising the tuning, it will place the bump right where we need it for dance music, and Rap ?
My listening room Duke is an enclosed carport, and has ceramic tile over cement floors, but suspended ceiling tiles.
The bass was so overwhelming, I actually had to "load" the ceiling tiles with thick fiberglass to make them behave!
I know people "poo poo" car stereo drivers Duke, and I am sure there are better drivers then the cadence wild beast 15 inch woofers.
But they work very well, for me.
How are things in beautiful Idaho ?
Oh, I have never been to New Orleans, but I had my first Poor Boy Sandwich and crawfish etoflay recently at the NOLA Cafe, here in Tampa!
The guy from NOLA Cafe is right from new orleans, came to tampa escaping the hurricane!
Man, thats some good food!!
Don't you MISS New Orleans, sometimes ??
The room is a component. So is integrating speakers within a room.
Having read all the above like I shoulda done the first time made me realize my comment is preety dumb. Oh well, I've eaten at NOLA'S and the man's other restaurant in the Warehouse District quite a few times and liked it everytime and didn't know Duke is from there. His last name IS French, tho, I believe. Boy, Idaho is a long way from NO.
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