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In Reply to: RE: What the hell is wrong with your preamp? posted by Robert C. Lang on January 05, 2009 at 16:57:09
So it is not the steps on the current pre.
His narrative does not make sense. There is some other problem somewhere.
Follow Ups:
I agree with you that we don't have enough pieces to the puzzle (for me) to figure out what the problem is.
However, the issue I was attempting to address had really nothing to do with whether the line stage (or pre amp) was passive or active. Passive or active is incidental in this case. I was focusing only on the volume control mechanism. A line stage, whether passive or active, can have a volume control with limited range or flexibility and *could*, with highly sensitive speakers, contribute to a situation where there is too much volume too quickly.
Again I agree we need more information to figure out what's wrong here.
Robert C. Lang
And he can't ever get it quiet enough - even after trying two different preamps?
This volume always being too loud simply is not possible with functioning equipment of this description properly hooked up.
There are other threads about pre out vs. tape out, but who cares? This is just nutty, and the information is not being related in a non time wasting fashion, imo. BS, in other words.
.....I have Canary CA-160 monoblocks and they have the same front end gain stage as his amps. The input sensitivity is around 0.6V. That is why he has very little usable volume control. Canary amps are better suited to passive line stages or preamps with lower gain.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
This is not a complicated thing: The original claim made no sense. And that has been acknowledged by the poster.
Now, as a separate issue, some installations may not have as fine volume _gradations_ as someone might want at lower levels. Fine.
But always too loud with the stated equipment: No.
As you stated, this is not complicated. And based on the factors presented by the original poster I believe Ozzy is correct. Ozzy offered as a solution a passive line stages ***or*** preamps with lower gain.
Clearly, a passive line stage, while it may (or may not) ameliorate the problem, in Brian's case, it is not the solution to excessive loudness too early in the volume control range. This is because his speakers (98 db) are far more sensitive than most and his amp ramps up to full power with 1/2 a volt. However, as Ozzy said (and I offered it as well), a preamp with lower, or better yet, adjustable gain, is probably the key. Likewise an amp with gain control would be extremely helpful.
The problem as stated by the Brian is not an oddball problem; avoidable perhaps, but not oddball or uncommon. I have seen it expressed here and elsewhere *numerous* times. That's why there are amps available with selectable input sensitivity switches and pre amps with adjustable gain.
The fact that Brian's original post omitted or got some facts incorrect is not a big deal (happens all the time here and elsewhere in other forums) as long as he was able to come back (in spite of some sarcastic responses) and provide the needed information, which he did. We could then move *forward* and not continually dwell on past mistakes.
Robert C. Lang
> Ozzy offered as a solution a passive line stages
I believe Ozzy did not read the part where the poster said he tried a passive and had the same problem.
I see no reason to be credulous when something obviously makes no sense, but do let me know when you find those WMDs in Iraq. (The two matters are related in terms of lack of any skepticism.)
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that *all* passive line stages give the same results in any given system. That is simply not the case. Passive are no more one size fits all than active pres. You don't necessarily rule out *all* passives simply because one did not work out. The poster could have tried a passive and failed to get the desired results but then tried a different passive and gotten a lot better, even satisfactory results.
I would venture that the Placette passive line stage or one like it with a 132 step volume control would work quite well, or, at minimum, much better, in Brian's system. On the other hand a less expensive passive line stage with 12 or 24 (typical for many) step volume control would probably fail miserably.
It's the *volume control* not just that it is passive (or active) that can make the audible difference.
Ozzy seems clearly capable of defending his statements if he so chooses (or bothers), but it is clear to me that his advice is on solid ground *especially*, but not only because, he suggested that Brian explore a passive line stage *or* (that you conveniently glossed over) a lower gain line stage. (By the way, Ozzy [and hundreds of others] have provided system descriptions in Inmate Systems. You might consider doing the same).
You can continue to play *gotcha* and cherry pick his (and others) suggestion because he "slipped up", in your view, and included "passive" as an *alternative* in his recommendation, but that speaks more to an emphatic negativity coming from you versus his and others attempts to be positive and helpful to resolve an all to common audio problem raised by Brian. Your choice.Robert C. Lang
Edits: 01/08/09
Gosh, this thread really makes sense.
It doesn't make any sense at all. Whenever someone suggested something the originator came up with another equally suspect alteration of the scenario. First the speakers were always too loud. Then they sounded thin, not always too loud. Then he already had tried a passive when someone first suggested that.
> he suggested that Brian explore a passive line stage *or* (that you conveniently glossed over) a lower gain line stage.
BTW, this "glossing over" is not relevant. A lower gain preamp would still have more gain than a passive. It's moot.
Now, you still have time to get back to helping solve the unsolvable problem - cos it's a moving target - and please ignore that a passive pre and 25 tube watts and even 95 db speakers do not always sound too loud...it's nutty.
First, the "target" has not moved for many posts now. Your deliberate insistence that the glass is always half empty and not half full has precluded you from seeing the answer(s).
I don't claim to be an expert on this issue so if others want to weigh in with error correction or clarification please do. But I do have extensive first hand experiences with passive line stages, active pre amps, gain adjustable and not, as well as amps that have gain controls
Sarcasm aside, of course, passive line stages have no gain, BUT certain passive line stage/amp combinations effectively have gobs of gain. If you mate a passive line stage with an amp, that, for example, has an input sensitivity of, say, .5 volts (significantly lower that the typical 2 volt CD source), that passive line stage will access (drive) full power of the amp with very little turn of the volume control. The "ponies" (power) were let out too quickly (Brian's situation).
Conversely, if that *same* passive line stage, is mated to a different amp that has an input sensitivity of, say, 2.5 volts (higher than a CD source), that passive line stage will not be able to access or all the power of the amp even if the volume control is turned up all the way. The amp is no less powerful, but the passive line stage, in this case, cannot tap all the resources of that amp. So, "ponies" are left in the barn. And hence the perception that the passive line stage does not get loud enough (and/or has poor dynamics--it's often a result of poor matching along with impedance and capacitance (long interconnect)issues.
Likewise, if you employ a "lower gain" or adjustable active pre amp (by the way, a passive pre amp is an oxymoron--passive line stage is the correct term), even though it still has gain, as you correctly said, you can still "spread out", for lack of saying it better, the access to the watts of a given amplifier, so that the ponies are released more slowly. So, in Brian's case the pre amp' volume control abruptly releases the amps power. If the gain was reduced by, say, 12 db or more, as could be the case with a "lower gain" pre amp the power release would not be so abrupt and unneeded power from the amp would not be accessed. Instead of a small turn of the volume control "releasing" watts, "milliwatts" would be released. The volume control would have to be turned quite a bit to access all the power. In this case a "lower gain" or adjustable active pre amp would "effectively" have less gain than a passive.
You have not seemed to understand this (I'm *not* trying to be nasty), which is why Ozzy was saying you were getting "gain" and "power" confused.
Anyway, what really makes this an issue for Brian is that his speaker's are extraordinarily efficient (98db) so that even 1 watt can be extremely loud. So, he has sort of a "perfect storm", of amp power, pre amp gain and high efficiency speakers that together are most certainly a problem for him.
Robert C. Lang
> he has sort of a "perfect storm", of amp power, pre amp gain and high efficiency speakers
Except the problem allegedly happened with two preamps, one active and one passive. What are the odds of that? (Please write to Sphile, TAS and the entire industry about its erroneous use of "passive preamp. Thanks.)
And for the record the problem presented definitely was altered once the dubious nature of the initial question was pointed out.
They're 98 db, I see. That's new.
Now, sometimes volume controls or attenuators don't have fine enough gradations. That's completely different, as I said, from "they're always too loud," or "the speakers sound thin."
Over and out.
Beginning with your first "shot from the hip" post,"What the hell is wrong with your preamp?", you have not once offered a sliver of positive input. Not a whit. Not a fragment.
Robert C. Lang
Edits: 01/11/09
I'm learning a lot from this, well trying to. I would think my pre and amp would be a good match for each other considering they are the same manufacturer. What I should do is talk to someone at Canary Audio, or at least send off an e-mail.
I initially posted here to get an idea of a good speaker for my amp, I was looking at the Vandersteen as there are a couple on Audiogon, or something similar. But I did point out the problem I have with the system being so loud while barely turning up the volume control. Again, I can turn the level down, it still sounds ok, but I'm sure I'm not getting the best from the amp if I can't turn the volume control past the 10 o'clock position and that's my goal, to get the most out of the amp.
The sound was never really veiled or thin until I tried the inline attenuators, and I tried them at the amp output and the pre out, it was basically the same result, poor sound.
I know I need better speakers regardless, I have close to 10k wrapped up in the amp, preamp, TT and cart as well as the phono pre. The speakers I've had for several years and they are basically a 4 or $500.00 speaker. They do rock and play music fairly well but I know I can do much better.
I don't even remember now if I originally asked if a less sensitive speaker is what I need. Should I be looking at sensitivity, input voltages, impedance, a combination? I am planning to do some more auditioning this weekend but ideally in home would be preferred. That being said I didn't want to buy new and pay full price but if I do find something that works and sounds great I'll go for it. My initial budget was in the 2k range but if I need to up that I will.
Again, thanks for all info, it's been very interesting...
Brian
I agree that since your amp and pre are from the same manufacturer there should be no compatibility problems, so focusing on the speakers makes sense, especially since you want to upgrade anyway.
****I don't even remember now if I originally asked if a less sensitive speaker is what I need.****
I believe this is the key and this is why both Ozzy and I questioned the intial spekaer sensitivity spec that was provided. The Vandersteen 2C would, for sure, would be more compatible in your system from a *sensitivity*, because it is speced (86db) at about 10 db less than your current speakers and it might even be less sensitive still. BUT it is recommended that the Vandersteen have an amplifier of a minimum of about 60 watts. That could present an audible problem for your amp.
I realize that home audition of speakers is tough for you because of your remote location. BUT I would *never* commit to a pair of new speakers without a home audition. You may need to work out a deal where you can buy the speakers with an ion clad money back guarantee. Or check out a manufacturer like Ohm Acoustics which have built their busines on the home trial model.
Robert C. Lang
Robert, I decided on a used pair of Proac Response 2.5, made an offer that was accepted, which are also 86dB but are rated for 20w amps. I have heard a pair in the past though with SS gear and thought they sounded great. From what I've read the Proacs work great with tube gear so I'll know next week sometime how these sound in my system. This will be my first true HiFi speaker so I'm excited but also know these are fairly old speakers and hopefully I won't get the upgrade bug even if I really like them.
I do appreciate all the help from you and the others, this is why I love the Audio Asylum, always lots of good advice and information though sometimes too much, but that's good. Thanks again and I'll post on how the Proacs sound after I give them a good listen.
Brian
Congratulations! I certainly would be interested in how it turns out for you. Keep us posted.
Robert C. Lang
Sorry if I started something here, I never said I couldn't lower the volume, I can. What I can't do is get beyond the 10 o'clock position without blasting myself and my ears to oblivion. At low volume the sound is so veiled and thin I don't bother. I definitely need better speakers and perhaps I went the wrong direction upgrading the amps and source first.
All that said it appears I have a very strong 24 watts of push pull 300b output, more than my speakers or my ears can handle and that's why I'm here looking for advice on new or used loudspeakers. I'm also considering a pair of B&W 802 Matrix Series 3 I could pick up locally from audiogon.
Brian
"As it stands now I have too much gain, I believe the Klipsch are about 91dB and they are just way too loud with the amp I have."This is quite a bit different from saying something like, "I want speakers which will sound good (not thin) when played at low and moderate volume levels."
Oh well, back to the drawing board for me!
Edits: 01/06/09
My original point was, and I probably didn't state it properly, was that I'm looking for speakers which will sound good at low to moderate levels but also when I want to crank it a little. As I said, I can barely get passed the 10 o'clock position without having to walk out of the room so I doubt I'm getting to the point where I'm getting the best from the amp.
I know the speakers are many steps below the quality of the rest of the system so I was just looking for advice on the Vandy's or a similar speaker. I want quality but really don't and can't spend 5 k on speakers, at least right now. And I think getting away from horns is what I want to do as well.
Sorry for any mis info...
Brian
There is no need to apologize. Sometimes it takes a few exchanges for adequate clarification. Besides the problem you express, excessive volume very early in the volume control range, is not uncommon. I have similar scenarios expressed numerous times in these forums. Most people just live with it (or even brag about it because they think it means their amps are brawny). It's good that you recognize that situation this can be a problem. What makes your problem a bit unusual is that your amp is of fairly low wattage. Perhaps your speakers (Klispch) are more sensitive than you realize?A couple of posts up I cited the *exact* problem I experienced a few years ago. I was fortunate enough to have a "gain control" on my amplifier which easily dealt with the problem. At 0 gain the volume at "10:00" was far too loud, but changing the gain to (I think) -24 enabled the volume control turned to 2:00 or so before reaching the equivelant volume level. Some amps (and pres) still have this control but it is not as common as in the past which is why I had my current amp modified by the designer to preclude the problem you described.
And you are probably right on in your description of the veiled sound that you experience with the volume control barely turned up. Paul McGowan of P.S audio explained to me at a CES once that the volume control is at it's best (sounds its best) when it is more fully open (not working to supress) the volume from the amp. When the volume control is closed it is working the hardest. I've have always had my volume controls set so that they have to be almost fully open to access full power. My speakers are just as efficient as yours and my amps generate about a 1000 watts. Of course, it helps (in my case) that I use a passive line stage instead of a pre amp.
You might double check to see if your amp or pre has some way to adjust gain. Otherwise, you may need to upgrade/change one of the other to gain flexibility. I don't think changing speakers is the answer (to resolve the gain issue) because while they are fairly efficient (for speakers) they are not *that* efficient and probably most speakers, save the least efficient models will cause similar issues for you.
Robert C. Lang
Edits: 01/07/09
Robert,
I alluded to the generous input sensitivity of his amps in my previous post above and the need for a lower gain preamp. Then I looked at his system and noticed he was already using a Canary preamp. You would think this would be a good combination since it has only has 9db of gain. I am using my canary amps with a deHavilland UV which has 12 db of gain and it works very well. So I don't think it is an amp/preamp mismatch at all. Could the Klipsch speakers he is using be more sensitive than specified?
So I agree. He not only needs better speakers, but ones of lower sensitivity.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
I didn't see your post above. Your are right. This is why I asked again about the sensitivity of his speakers. The 91 he cited is low for most Klipsch speakers
Robert C. Lang
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