 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
71.232.93.134
In Reply to: RE: Yes I agree these are very nice sounding speakers, but there are a no substitutes posted by Rich Brkich on January 29, 2008 at 08:36:35
"The VSMs (and the TSMs too) do without these traits in order to deliver a more uniform, continuous and pure sound in order to offer (IMO) a more honest and more and true window to the the music and the gear through which it is being played."
Having been accused in the past of being overly enthusiastic about gear that I sell, I am acutely aware of where description and even praise crosses over into promotion. That said, I expect the above description has been used by a great many speaker designers to describe their products. What Mr. B is describing here is transparency. But since most of us have heard Harbeths and Thiels and Audio Notes and Quads and Sound Labs, we know that transparency comes in many shapes, sizes, sounds, and alas, colors. Merlins have their own sound, a sound which appeals to some and not to others. It would be interesting to hear someone attempt to describe that sound in somewhat more particular terms some day. That might help prospective buyers more than simply telling them that here we have yet another speaker claiming to be absolutely transparent. No such thing, y'all. Not yet anyway.
Follow Ups:
bob,
very interesting and a comment exactly like what i would expect from you.
rich is talking about resolution and imho, that is something very different.
i am not going to cointinue this.
thanks for your thoughts.
best, b
Oh hell, Bobby, even you could give a more particular and less hyperbolic description of your speakers than Mr. B did. Your speakers have a sound, a particular sound, a very popular sound, which has stood up for a good many years now. If they couldn't be distinguished from the competition in more specific language than "transparency," "resolution," "window on the proceedings," etc. they would have flopped a long time ago and you'd be selling shoes. Whether I like them or not is immaterial. I like Reynauds, for chrissakes, which are far less "transparent," "resolving," or "windowlike" than Merlins. All I'm saying, besides sideswhiping Mr. B for being a little over the top writing as a dealer and Bored Member, is that using language like this to describe speakers these days is unnecessarily (and un-usefully) evasive. To be fair, you're not alone in this. Peter Q and Alan S use virtually the same language to describe Audio Notes and Harbeths...and none of these three sound anything like one another. So maybe we shouldn't ask designers to describe their speakers. But dealers should be able to do better if they want credibility.
i have been very open about my design philosophy for many years now. and some people know it and many do not. but my speakers are not designed to compensate for the ear in any way. as in real life, the ear should be left alone to compensate on its own. this has a number of very benefitial aspects to the tonal balance and resolution of the reproduced sound. but if i describe them here, then i will be crossing the line. and i will not do that. nor will i get in conflicts with other manufacturers.
i will be glad to discuss this with you on the phone bob and maybe then you will get a better understanding of what i do. 585 367 2390. after 11:30 am today.
thanks,
b
You are, as always, gracious, but what I was asking for was not an explanation of why or how you do what you do and what your goals are. That is your business. It is also true that designers who get their designs right hear what they intended, which is their sense of what music sounds like. So they are seldom in a position to describe their work as one might who doesn't not have their particular ears. This may finally be why most designers describe the sound of their speakers the same way: they say, in essence, that they are accurate. Meaning they sound "right" to the designer, which is as it should be. Even Jean Marie says this, as he should.
What I have always felt was needed was someone who is not you describe in comparative terms what Merlins sound like. Which is another way of asking what do Bob P's ears sound like, compared with Peter Q's, Jean Marie's, Alan S? What is Merlin's point of view on music? Not what does its designer intend, which is, as I say, to get it right so it satisfies the designer.
So perhaps I misspoke when I said "Even you" could do a better job at describing the Merlin sound. What you could do, probably better than anyone, is describe what you intend. We need - not me, the world out hunting for speakers - someone who can tell us where Merlins fit into the big speaker picture.
bob,
what i can do (if you call) is to tell you exactly where the merlins fit into the scheme of things and why. agreed, most designers describe their products in the same way but i may be able to help you make sense of what is being said and why. few work on a product for the legnth of time i do to ensure they are right and finished. my understanding of these things is constantly changing and evolving. yes we have been around for a long time with a few products and that shows people like what we do. what is different about them and what i hear i will not say here because in doing so, it will call into question other products. that again is crossing the line.
call if you want. it might be informative.
best,
b
But Bobby, I don't want to hear where YOU think Merlins fit into the scheme of things. Anymore than you want to hear where, based on what I hear, I think they fit. What you and I think here is irrelevant. Everybody knows that YOUR sense of things is Merlin-centered, as it should be. An author knows his intentions (if not objectively what he has actually achieved) better than anyone. And almost everybody knows that my sense of things has (after a long weeding out process) become Audio Note and Reynaud centered. My intellectual and emotional investment in AN and JMR is not as fundamental as yours has to be in Merlin, but it's close enough so that folks know they may be dealing with a confluence of interest when they deal with me. And finally, I don't need to know how your design got to where it is and why because I can hear the results, which is all that matters to me.
Again, what is needed is to have someone who has neither your nor my specific interests here step in and provide a more (I don't say absolutely) objective or at least disinterested (as judges are presumed to be) comparative description. You and I don't need to talk to each other, here or on the phone. SOMEBODY ELSE needs to talk to all of us.
I didn't really expect you to come into this conversation - and I acknowledge you entered with reservations (!). I expected some other champions and critics of Merlin to step in and start using some interesting adjectives. Adjectives other than "resolving," "transparent," "accurate," "truthful," and the like.
So sorry to take up your time.
On another note....I really don't care one way or another about Merlins, but there definitely is a sense of the "thought police" around here whenever they are mentioned. It is tiresome and makes me feel cynical. At what point can the product speak for itself? It is odd to me when a manufacturer jumps into every thread where their product is mentioned. Kind of inhibits open discussion......like there is a Merlin club here and only members are allowed. WE GET IT! WE GET IT! WE GET IT! If only things were that simple. We would only need one brand of everything.
rob,
i can see what you mean and appreciate your feelings, believe me! but if you watched this whole thing unfold you would have found that a few said incorrect and improper things/accusations. so i stood up for my product and myself. in general i only speak up when an information/correction is needed. i like discussions to go on openly too but not at the expense of my product's reputation or mine. do not come down on me because someone decided to make this personal. the evidence is here for you to see and i only spoke up after the thing got messy.
best,
b
"if you watched this whole thing unfold you would have found that a few said incorrect and improper things/accusations..."
What did I say that was "incorrect" or "improper" and what "accusations" did I make that caused you to jump into the conversation? You jumped when I addressed Mr. B., right? So it was me that provoked you to enter the conversation. So again, what did I say that was incorrect or improper?
before my comments to you.
i was referring to things that were said before our comminication.
you offended me in no way.
drop it, let it slide.
best,
b
"It is the job of the Thought Police to uncover and punish thoughtcrime and thought criminals, using psychology and omnipresent surveillance from telescreens to find and eliminate members of society who were capable of the mere thought of challenging ruling authority."
i stand by what i said.
if you do not likle it, do not read it.
best,
b
Bob,
There are plenty of professional reviews all over the net, and accessible from Merlin's website, describing how the Merlins sound in details. I don't believe either me - as a man who loves them - or a person who doesn't like them, would be objective enough, and would bring anything more to the table than what has been written about them already.
Plus, as you very well know, describing sound is very difficult, if only because we might not use the same words. The only thing I have to say is I love the Merlins for the way they "communicate" as opposed to how they "sound". I realize how vague it is but it's this feeling that they only play for you, that they whisper to you, that they do open a black hole in front of you and drag you head first into the music. The Reynauds do the same, which is why I compared them once, much to your chagrin. And they share a generally rather warm signature as opposed to cold and analytical.
I think that for more precise opinions, one shoud listen to them and read real reviews.
JB
If all the hullabaloo is simply a need to invest one's self in a well written review of the Merlins, look no further:
"A comparison to the VMPS RM40 is in order. In spite of all the wonderful things that I have said regarding the VSM, the RM40 is still a superb loudspeaker... I am not abandoning it. Still, these are two very different loudspeakers. The one is a 6.5" 2-way, the other a seven driver 3-way. The RM40 has more authority in the very bottom octaves - multiple 10" woofers will do that for you. On the other hand, the VSM is everything the larger RM40 is in terms of dynamic range and ease under large scale symphonic assault-maybe more. In terms of tone and timbre, both speakers are superb. Where the VSM comes into its own in this comparison, and in every comparison that one would want to place it, is in terms of its coherence and "on a clear day," transparency. The VSM simply represents a new vista in terms of putting less between the listener and the music listened to. In this respect, to these ears, it is the state-of-the-art.
Conclusion
Lest you think my endorsement of the VSM as a very special product has been made against a backdrop of soft contenders, I am fully versed in the sound of the latest Magico, Wilson and Kharma loudspeakers . l have heard nothing as exciting or as uniquely absent of coloration as is the VSM mxe. Were I to guess at two speakers capable of giving the VSM a run for its overall title as the "best", they would have to be the Sonus Faber Elipsa and VMPS RM V60 with VMPS sub . I had the pleasure of hearing both of those two loudspeakers in Las Vegas in January (amongst several hundred other contenders) and they are the creme of the "money no object" crop.
Still, the no holds barred, ultra transparency of the VSM MXe will be hard to beat."
A good start, though I see we're dealing with the transparency thing again. Relative merit aside, do you feel that Merlins are similar in voice and presentation to the Magico, Wilson and Kharma loudspeakers you mentioned? That is, do you find the Merlins better at the same thing they do? I'm surprised to read Merlin and Sonus Faber in the same paragraph, though I haven't heard these particular SF's. I would have expected them to be a bit creamier than Merlins. Anyway, thanks for addressing the hullabaloo.
Mac, based on what you heard at RMAF 2006 and 2007, could you compare the voice or overall presentation of the Merlins with other speakers you heard?
Believe it or not, I did not start this sub-thread to pick on Merlins, just to see if I could provoke a more useful comparison than Mr. B's, which set Merlin purity against the competition which he finds full of character. You see I hear character in Merlins too, so I'm looking, perhaps hopelessly, for some confirmation of my experience.
OK, I'll lay out.
Bob,I think only you can confirm your experience. I also think the "transparency thing" is what Merlins (and what all good speakers) are about. Colorful language aside, transparency, to me, is simply the lack of artificial artifacts in the sound of a component or speaker. I have owned and compared Reynauld's Twins, Trentes and Evolution 3s to Merlin's TSM-M, TSM-SE, VSM-SE, VSM-M and VSM-MXe. There is no question in my mind that the Reynauds are enjoyable speakers (I still have the Twins in my bedroom system), but in each one of them I hear colorations absent from the Merlins. Colorations that, once you are used to the Merlins, lead you away from the actual music and back into the mechanical reproduction of music. If you are hearing a particular "sound" from the VSM-MXes, my hunch would be that you're hearing it from upstream in your system.
No, I haven't heard the Magico, Kharma or Wilson brands. I live in the Orlando area, which is void of high-end gear, and so they are not accessible to me. I bought my first pair of Merlins (and most every other speaker I've owned) based on professional reviews (of all things!) and of course also based on my budget. However if Martin Dewulf holds such revered brands in the same company as the Merlins, that too should provide enough "street cred" to potential Merlin owners to take the plunge.
Personally, compared to all of the other speakers I've owned, from Sound Lab Dynastats to the various Reynauds, Gershman Avant Garde, Joseph Audio RM25 MkII, Magneplanar 1.6, Triangle Zays, etc., I would prefer to live happily ever after with the Merlin TSM-Ms (not even the current generation) coupled with a subwoofer. Now that I have the latest VSM-MXes, I can live ecstatically ever after, with no qualms about what I'm missing from other speakers. They are all-around fantastic transducers - take up little room, look great, and are built by master craftsmen one at a time with no tolerance for flaws in finish or sound. The most technically correct term representing the Merlin's sound is indeed "transparent." They are also engaging, full of light and life, dreamy with female vocals such as Eva Cassidy's Songbird, painful when listening to poorly recorded 1980's hairband music, lucious with any well-recorded harmonies (even the new Eagles CD), faithful to bass notes as opposed to creating false fullness in that region, fully capable of rocking one's world with rock (try No Doubt's last CD), firmly entrenched in the "less is more" realm of design - which aids in channeling their increbible coherence into every piece of music in your collection, and gosh darn it they just sound good :)
DKL
Stupid me, I thought that was your review, not Martin's!
well I'll take that as a compliment - don't beat yourself up :)
I agree that JMR's (and for that matter AN's too) have more character (personality, whatever) than Merlins though to my ears it is the character of music (in both cases), not something else. But this is not the place for a JMR/AN dealer to go into that kind of comparison. You are happy with your Merlins for all of the right reasons, so let's call it a day for our exchange. What's especially interesting to me that is that very different sounds can reach different ears and produce the same reaction - that is, a sense of rightness. That should drive designers nuts.
bob.
because no matter how this goes someone will cross the line of what is fair and proper. i for one will not do that.
in closing, a designer has to do what he or she thinks is right, period. if he listens to everyone that offers opinions he will end up with no product at all because he will just keep changing to make others happy. all of the gifted and talented ones go primarily with their own feelings.
for every individual on the planet there is a potentially different opinion about any given thing.
so, to thine own self be true.
best,
b
A good start, though I see we're dealing with the transparency thing again. Relative merit aside, do you feel that Merlins are similar in voice and presentation to the Magico, Wilson and Kharma loudspeakers you mentioned? That is, do you find the Merlins better at the same thing they do? I'm surprised to read Merlin and Sonus Faber in the same paragraph, though I haven't heard these particular SF's. I would have expected them to be a bit creamier than Merlins. Anyway, thanks for addressing the hullabaloo.
Mac, based on what you heard at RMAF 2006 and 2007, could you compare the voice or overall presentation of the Merlins with other speakers you heard?
Believe it or not, I did not start this sub-thread to pick on Merlins, just to see if I could provoke a more useful comparison than Mr. B's, which set Merlin purity against the competition which he finds full of character. You see I hear character in Merlins too, so I'm looking, perhaps hopelessly, for some confirmation of my experience.
OK, I'll lay out. Thanks DK.
you need to live with a pair for a while to get to know what they do. walking into a room at a show does little for a truly qualitative assessment.
listen to all different kinds of music but primarily complex stuff and you will get the idea.
best,
b
Venice, CA: Accuphase CDP, Blue Circle BC3000 and BC2.1's, Spendor SP 1/2's and SP 100's, around an hour and a half, c. 1992?
Montreal show: Naim CDX, Berning amp, around an hour, later that decade.
And yes, I did pop in at RMAF this year, but just to say hello and see if the brief impression I got was any different from the earlier, more studied ones.
I have no bone to pick with you or Merlin, just trying to account in some concrete way for what it is that folks are hearing from your speakers, which are so different from what I'm used to. "From what I'm used to." I don't underestimate the significance of that remark!
When I come home from a live concert (local recital hall, Snape Maltings in Aldebergh, England), I have a sound in ears. And that's the one I pursue. Just like everybody else, including you. As I just said to DK, it is mind boggling how such different sounds (Merlin, JMR, Audio Note, Harbeth, Spendor, Thiel) can yield the same results in different ears. Bobby, Jean Marie, Peter, Alan, Jim all appear to be correct. Mind boggling, absolutely.
forget about the older models, listen to the vsm mme or mxe in a properly treated or large room with a nice associated system. then make a qualified judgement. maybe you'll still think the same thing. :-)
still, like i said, they are not for everyone. so don't worry if you still feel the same.
best,
b
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]