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In Reply to: RE: upgrades exist outside of one aspect of a xover topology. posted by Edp on November 19, 2007 at 12:32:47
EDP, you consistantly criticize my posts, so let me ask you this. What are your credentials? Are you a physicist? I'm completely un-concerned about lobing which has only been shown to be audable on test tones (and I, like the other poster cannot hear it in my music). I'm even more unconcerned about off axis response as when I listen i'm right between my speakers (but again, I don't hear radical differences on or off axis any more than I do with other speakers). Low fi speakers probably wouldn't demand this, but when your buying speakers costing more than $10K/pair your not dealing with low fi. If your going to listen off axis, why in the HELL would ANYONE plop this kind of money into a pair of speakers? I don't hear any audable distortions from these speakers. I don't have any problems with dynamic compression or power handling and I have a quality 200 watt amplifier. I'm a musician/recording artist and i'm concerned with the sound I hear from my Martin guitar sounding like it does to my ears through my speakers. the GMA's do that. The vast majority of my associates are musicians, recording engineers, audio manufacturers and record label owners. They too have all said nothing but great things about these speakers. Look at what high order crossovers do to the musical waveform in the link below. If you don't care about that, I would question your desire to hear the musical truth, in which case, why worry about high end pre-amps, amps cdp's or cables?. The changes in waveform that high order crossovers introduce, if done by ANY other component in the recording or playback chain would simply be considered defective. So why then is it not only accepted by people such as yourself, but DEFENDED? Why do YOU consider this acceptable, or prefferable performance?
Follow Ups:
My credentials. I've been designing, measuring, building and at one point in distance past, selling loudspeakers, for over 4 decades. I am a Mechnical Engineer by birth and training. I had minors in Corrosion/Creep and Acoustics.
Your posts are worthy of critisim, simply that you stress one aspect over all others, and deny the existance of non-optimized parameters that are often an offshoot of the myopic choice you use.
Fine if you want to use that, just other readers of your posts need to understand that there are tradeoffs. And if anyone really wanted to be so committed to phase coherence/time coherance, they would not touch a speaker with more than one driver and any xover at all.
Look at how you respond, you take a stance that no speaker is an upgrade from GMA in this post thread, I answer that there are many parameters other than phase that folks use to determine upgrade. You take that as an assault on GMA products and a personal afront.
You go on about how you don't listen to this , or don't hear that (vertical polar response - lobing, or FIM distortions), but then basically thrash any other hobbist if they don't hear phase coherancy as a paramount trait. No matter if you hear the issues or not, does not make them, well understood, long time measured, and impact real.
The on/off axis issues exist, the lobing exist and they are important characteristics when dealing with room, speaker placement and the ability to render the fragile illusion of space/distance that two channel playback is capable of.
There are several very successful implementations of 1st order loudspeakers that are used in studio for playback and are liked by many. Dunatech, Dynaudio (older) and Dunlavy were brands that were faithfully installed in the studios, with designs and distances to both take advantages of 1st order and reduce the impacts of the limitations that the xover choice presented.
So it is simple, add balance to your posts on plus/minuses of first order based GMA products or relax when others , including myself, assist you in pointing out the portions you didn't understand, choose not to understand, or deny, that do exist.
Do you understand time domain physics? I happen to believe, and call me crazy if you like, that THE main purpose of ANY audio component is to be faithfull to the original recording. If you don't agree with that, stop reading. An amplifier should simply take a low level signal and increase it. Not add transient distortions from large global negative feedback loops. It should be able to pass cleanly a square wave at most any audable frequency. The good ones can. Speakers should do the same thing. Reproduce what the amplifer is sending them. Period. If you smear that signal by 180 or 360 degree's ( as any crossover other than a first order does), your no longer hearing that original signal as it came out of the amplifier. Any change in that signal can be called one thing and one thing only: distortion. Your "distorting" the waveform. I'm big on that. Your not. Fine. I don't hear any lobing, compression or distortions in my GMA calypso's. I can play them un-godly loud for hours with no problems. Paul Candy of 6moons.com was also unable to hear any lobing, compression or distortion in the GMA product in a review just published today. I'm sure you'll think he's as full of it as I am, but I think he liked them, saying many of the same things I do about them. Imagine that! I trust my ears. GMA is not the only manufacturer building 1st order speakers. There are a hanfull of good ones out there. Not all 1st order designs are created equal though. I happen to believe that GMA does it right. I'm far from alone in this thinking. In fact, I have never read a bad review on them anywhere and probably never will and challenge you to show me one. They are simply great speakers. The original poster asked if V.S would be an upgrade. My opinion is no they would be a significant downgrade, if for no other reason than they are not faithfull to the original recording. If this teeny little aspect of reproducing recorded music isn't high on your list, then feel free to purchase whatever floats your boat. ok?
You didn't gather anything I said in the post you are responding to. You just rant.
So then if you want to take that extreme approach, "I'm going to hold my breath and scream", then don't whine when your rants get corrected.
Your "I and reviewer don't hear" has as much validity to others who would say to you "In a thrid order xover I and 5 reviewers don't hear any issues with phase or time" (btw that too happens all the time). Both you and the third order guy would like what you hear, but wouldn't be technically correct.
Your continue to be a religous zealot, pretending to have technical knowledge, and when pressed on that technical knowledge, you resort to "I don't hear that". Faith is not always equivalent to understanding.
Warning, You've earn more future correcting by your approach and answers as a result of this thread
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