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Re: Another thought..

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Tom Brennan

In Reply to: Another thought.. posted by mikem on March 24, 2000 at 20:19:41:

Mikem--Lower mass does not in itself mean more speed, you have to take into account the strength of the motor and the distance to be travelled. Compare normal hi-fi 9"s to a strong motored 15" driver like a JBL LE15 or an Altec 515. It's like you're saying a Hundai can do the quarter mile quicker than a Street Hemi can do the eigth mile just because it has less mass (remember the larger cone needs less excursion for a given volume and 2 9" don't equal a 15" in area). Actually "speed" has little or nothing to do with woofers anyway, I think the impression of speed in woofers is the sound of low distortion and good damping in some cases and just plain old lack of bass in others.

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Re: Another thought.. mikem 15:14:27 03/25/00 (3)
Makes sense.. My bagend uses an 18" driver that sounds very fast.. I have heard some other large driver subs that sound very slow and flabby..
mike
- Bag End Sean 23:40:26 03/26/00 (2)
  The ELF sub is designed VERY differently than most other subs on the market. For one thing, it's a sealed design. This in itself will typically give the impression of tighter bass with better pitch and definition. This is mostly due to the lack of ringing that most ported / passive radiator designs suffer from.
  The other factor is that the ELF system is run BELOW it's resonant frequency. Most woofers run down TO it's resonance and then give up below there. The ELF resonate's ABOVE it's operating range. It doesn't have to deal with the increased reactance / poorer damping of resonance within it's operating range. It is also equalized, which helps to compensate for any irregularities that the system may encounter naturally.
  It is a completely different and novel approach that nobody else uses ( as far as i know ). The designer is also a pretty nice guy. Sean
  >
  - Re: Bag End Lowell 17:26:46 03/27/00 (1)
    the only things that burn me about BAG end:
    1-I remember hype claiming as low as 7-11hz output. I seem to remember that just below 20, these sub die off quickly! Very little output below 18hz.
    2- The VMPS larger sub [which uses a PR] has no ring, and will do 20hz at 115db or better with negligable distortion, and pound you all day with 16hz for $699. The Bag end, isn't as strong and costs many times as much. Ergo, my thrill is negated with bag End.
    NOTE: NASA at Langley bought a pair of VMPS subs for low frequency testing because it is the only commercail sub that can play that low with substatial volume. The bag end cannot, it doesn't have the output.
    - Re: Bag End Sean 22:27:22 03/28/00 (0)
      I hope that Brian does not take offense to this, but the only set of VMPS speakers that i have ever heard sounded HORRIBLY bloated on the bottom end. While i do not doubt that the speakers were capable of deep bass reproduction at high volume levels, the tonal balance was so poor and the bass definition so bad that i lost interest instantly. For all i know, they might have been made from kits and were improperly assembled.
      Keep in mind that this was MANY years ago and i do not recall the specific models being used. I have no idea what his current models perform like other than that they have been getting quite good reviews from both magazines and consumers alike.
      As it is, i have never heard ANY speaker system that used Passive Radiators that had bass that i would describe as "fast & clean" with good "pitch" or "definition". If you read the books, passive's have the poorest transient response of ANY type of reflex design. They suffer the slowest rise time and greatest amount of ringing according to what i've read. This means a lack of definition, detail and clarity. So far, my ears tend to agree with what i've read.
      In terms of the Bag End system, i have a ( non-audiphile ) friend that used to work there. He told me that if i ever saw how these were built, i would never buy one. Nuff said ??? Sean
      >
Re: Another thought.. Lowell 07:58:50 03/25/00 (0)
That has to be completely true. I have not heard a 15" driver with the speed the VMPS has. I normally associated that with "too much cone" and too slow.
I also think it has to do with if that driver is asked only to work low, not trying to extend it to midbass a'la Cerwin-Vega.
I hate to use the word "Fast bass" I prefer "Controlled".
I guess some designers feel 8" of cone are easier to make behave than a 12" or a 15".

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