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In Reply to: RE: The End of the World? Nah, Just the New WE 300B! posted by Gerry E. on March 21, 2020 at 09:25:45
Inquiring minds and all of that.
Follow Ups:
We now have at least two truly excellent currently manufactured 300Bs to choose from (Takatsuki, WE). So far, they are surprisingly similar in sound. Unfortunately they are among the more expensive 300Bs. Both the wife and I did separate single song A/B comparisons last night. Here are the results followed by some disclaimers:I went first using Donald Fagen's "On the Dunes" track on his Kamakiriad album. I used this because it's an excellent recording and I own a special promo gold CD copy. Both 300Bs were excellent but I thought the Takatsuki reproduced Fagen's voice a little bit better. Then the wife listened to Justin Hayward's "The Swallow" on his Strange Times album. Again, another excellently recorded album, especially that song. She said she listened for certain things within the song and preferred the second tube (the WE 300B). So, two simple tests and opposite results.
Disclaimers:
1. I knew which tube I was listening to but my wife's test was "blind".
2. In both cases, we preferred the tube that was the second one listened to. I have often wondered if there is some bias in favor of the tube to go second when doing a quick A/B comparison.
3. My 5 month old Takatsuki 300Bs have had a lot more break-in time than the new WE 300Bs (more about that below).
4. It should go without saying that this was a very limited test with only two songs, each one listened to twice in a row with a switch of tubes in between.I was surprised to get another call from Charles Whitener. He called me to address my concern about the strong but lower test results of these brand new WE 300Bs. He said that they use $100K test equipment to test the tubes before they leave the factory and all of the tubes in the first batch tested extremely strong. He also showed me on my individual test reports how well the tubes did on the life tests. Last, he explained that with the special oxide coating they use on the filaments, these new WE 300Bs could take up to 500 hours to sound their best.
I would also like to note that I take issue with Fred Crowder's review of the Audio Note 4300E on Dagogo. Near the very end he writes "...the AN 4300E's are sonically superior to the Takatsuki 300B... ". He hadn't mentioned anything about the Takatsuki earlier in the review but puts out that statement in the conclusion section. He doesn't give any context or relevant information about how he arrived at that conclusion. For example, when did he compare them, how did he compare them, is he going strictly by memory and why they are "superior" (his word). The only qualifier he gives is that he used his Audio Note (U.K.) Balanced Kegon amps to evaluate the tubes. I wonder how many extra 4300E sales this unqualified and gratuitous single statement will generate for Audio Note?
Gerry
Edits: 04/07/20
Be very interested to see how well the newest version of Charlie's WE300B ages over time.
That, to me, is a huge deal as many Chinese tube sound great for the fist few hundred hours, then become kind of 'dead' or 'dull' sounding.
Also many 300Bs are microphonic, which my late 90's, early 2000 Kansas made WE300Bs never were. I have a pair of KR made 300Bs that are so microphonic I can't stand to use them. :-(
For now I'm keeping both pairs but eventually will sell one or the other. They are so similar sounding it's hard to differentiate. After additional listening I *think* the Takatsuki 300Bs are very slightly more upfront/forwarding sounding but not in a bad way. If that's correct then one's system and personal taste may dictate which one would be preferred.
In several postings you made the very important point of longevity, a Western Electric trademark. AFAIK, the Takatsuki 300Bs have passed the "longevity test". Of course we have no idea about these new Series 3 WE 300Bs (the serial numbers start with a '3'). However, they are offering a 5 year warranty if you send in the warranty card within 10 days (I did).
If the WE 300Bs continue to improve up to 500 hours of use, as Charles W. indicated, I will probably keep them and sell that Taks. I'm surprised by this because they set a very high bar.
Gerry
You can always e-mail Fred and ask him. Or perhaps leave a reply in the comment section below the review. I never get an e-mail telling me if I get a reply so I am very slow to respond if ever.
I do know that Fred buys his equipment and I have met him and the dealer who was very happy to receive the cheque for the M9 preamp (Audio-federation). No free gifts there.
One thing that is generally important to note about "tube sound" is that if you read endless things about tubes on various forums you will find that there is little consensus on which tube sounds better - and part of that is very likely circuit dependent.
A Mullard output tube might be best in 9 amplifiers but maybe some other brand is better in the tenth amplifier.
Since Audio Note is testing all these tubes - and Peter owns them all as he has a tube collection over a million - when he is testing the tubes in his circuits - it may be that his tubes beat or get very close to some of the best NOS tubes. The key part though is "in an Audio Note amplifier". Put that tube in some other amp and it may be good but a notch or 2 worse.
Since Fred owns an AN amplifier - perhaps the AN tube sounds better. Would stand to reason. Put the tubes in a Cary 300B and the reverse could hold true and the Takatsuki might sound superior. And then two people can listen to the exact same thing and disagree. So you might put the AN tube in your amp and like the AN tube more - much to your surprise and you might here both tubes in the AN amp and much to your surprise like the Takatsuki better - how will you know until you try?
Regardless - people tend to be heavily biased in some fashion whether pro or anti a company or product. Some people will love something or someone no matter how horrible or nice they are and others will do the exact opposite.
I would not really worry about it because the only people Peter is likely going to sell tubes to are Audio Note 300B owners or "perhaps" people who have another 300B amp but have AN somewhere in the chain. I mean there are not a helluva lot of 300B amp owners when you think about it.
The guys who can afford P4 monoblocks - wow - can probably buy all the most expensive 300B tubes on the market. And then they will each decide which one sounds the best.
It would stand to reason that anyone who buys Audio Note "probably" has the same sonic taste as Peter Qvortrup. Thus, it then follows that these people would "probably" have the same sonic taste when it comes to tubes. Since Peter's favorite sounding amplifier in his stable is the 211 - then there is a very good chance that his favorite sounding 300B will be something that mirrors the 211 characteristics.
If you ever get a chance - listen to the Audio Note Meishu that has been selling for 20+ years and the new Meishu Tonmeister. The latter to me is vastly better but not everyone is likely to concur. Because I prefer 2a3 and 211 and 45 over the 300B - the new Tonmeister has more drive grunt and power etc etc - but for some people that might take some focus off the gentility of what they like about 300B amplifiers.
Way back circa year 2000 I directly compared a Cary 300B against a Meishu and Audio Note Kit 1 (300B) and to me all in the same room same volume same speakers source music etc - the Cary came in a distant last place. To me it wasn't even remotely a contest. Now - I am not "right" or "Wrong" it's just a taste thing.
A few years later I heard a Ongaku/Jinro and felt the AN 300B amps lacked oomph and drive (even though that was the strength against the Cary) - and every other major 300B amp including the one Jack Roberts loved all sounded weak willed to me.
I then heard the 2a3 and thought it was much better as an all rounder to the 300B amps including the AN's. And I preferred the sound over the doubly more expensive AN 211 amps.
Lastly - one other thing is the combination of tubes. Peter is looking at all the tubes in tandem - X preamp tube and how it works with Y power tube. Perhaps if Fred changed some of the preamp tubes then the combination of X preamp tube with the Takatsuki 300B would, combined, sound better than the AN 300B tube and the preamp tube or driver tube supplied by Audio Note in the preamp. These things to me work in tandem.
Usually I find the term "better" to be a less helpful - better at what? Usually something will do one thing better at the expense of something else.
I think the 2a3 is better as an all-rounder - it rocks - is seems more powerful to me. Same for the 211. But - there is gentility or beauty to the 300B - described by a couple of different Hong Kong dealers as beautiful or "lady like" that can't be denied. If I were rich it would be great to have a bunch of different amps and tube types for different music and moods.
And don't forget that 45 - I have only heard the AN 45 amp (pretty affordable comparatively) and that thing has a sound that is in some ways the best of the lot of them. It's just sooooo low powered.
"I wonder how many extra 4300E sales this unqualified and gratuitous single statement will generate for Audio Note?"
Considering how much Peter gets for his gear, how little (relatively) he gets from his tubes, I don't think it matters that much.
But if the new WE tubes from Charlie are as good as you say, there is hope for us all. Especially if I get my 300B monoblocks cooking again and my near 20 year old WE300Bs need replacing (they have no getter flashing left).
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