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I am seeking recommendations for my first SET amp . This will be for an experiment to see if this type of amplifier is for me . I am not new to tubes as I have been using a tubed PP integrated for quite a number of years .
I want to use this SET with a pair of Sansui speakers , SP-x7700 . These are claimed to be 97db. efficient with about 3 cubic foot speaker boxes containing a 16" woofer each . They are 4-way with 5 drivers each with a 6"x2" horn tweeter , a 5" mid and 2ea. 1" super tweeters .
I will need an integrated amp . My budget limit is $3,000 and used is ok . I listen to classic rock and contemporary blues .
Thank you .
Follow Ups:
nt
nt
The term "integrated amp" means different things to different people. To some, the term implies on-board input switching, tone controls, a tape loop and phono preamp. Others consider it "integrated" if it simply has a volume control.
If you have cabinet space for two chassis, I would recommend a separate amp and preamp. Bottlehead makes kits, and they're very highly regarded. A separate preamp and SET amplifier are within your budget. These products will give you the most bang for your buck, and they have distinct advantages over buying used gear or (ugh) Chinese junk.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
your blame should be directed at the idiots who tolerate it. on that I say: good luck with that!
I am fairly confident with the following fundraiser wager:
Take all the China content from a Hardly Ableson, and it will neither start, or be moveable w/o invoking sliding friction.
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Not once have I said that the Chinese people are to blame for this. It is absolutely the fault of those who accept and purchase third world junk. Most societies eventually get what they deserve, and I predict the U.S. will be no exception. The impact on Western economies has been significant, and we are only at the very beginning of this era. The end result will reach well beyond the confines of money and jobs.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Um...the USA is more Third World than China, these days. In fact, the US is a banana republic!http://img.timeoutbeijing.com/201702/20170214122812289.jpg
Edits: 11/29/17 11/29/17
Not trying to steal the thread but... I have the same question as OP with a few other questions1. My budget is a bit less, no more than 2K. Looking for SET integrated amp (with preamp in it)
2. I am using 12 years old Polk towers but may be looking for something else to play nice with the tube amp. Emotiva pre/amp separates. Never owned a tube amp before.
3. I mostly listen to pop and classical music. Worth it trying tube amp in terms of getting better/different experience? Medium sized bedroom setup.
4. Want something reliable, good quality, to enjoy for a long time. Not necessarily want to keep upgrading later on to something better.
5. Do not have any time/know-how to do my own work. Sorry, too busy with work/family.
6. I read comments above about Chinese amps. But there are many great reviews about the Line Magnetic and Opera brands both in terms of build quality and music reproduction.Some other Chinese brands also have great quality reviews. Any other comments?
7. Saw a few amps with a combo of both 845 and 300B tubes and 20W/channels output with some great reviews. Any comments about that?
8. Kits with PCB vs point-to point as far as long term reliability and sound quality. Any opinions? Saw Japanese Elekit for under 1K assembled.Any ideas?
9. Any specific recommendations? What output tube type would you recommend? Again, I would rather buy something good now than trying to upgrade later and spend more. I am not in a hurry. Willing to look/wait for something used to buy providing I know what I am looking for.
I know that's a lot of questions but the topic is rather complicated. Thanks very much!
Edits: 01/12/18
China has a 100 year plan to dominate the world. We still have time. ;-)
buy Chinese buy Communist rule. they already own your film propaganda industry.
why is the globilist destroying all non communist country's and culture?
a culture that doesn't hold mother and child sacred is destined to destruction.
Jordan Petersen.
why did the Cia fund feminist's in the 60's?
why have feminist's joined with the muslims?
20 years is all we have left not 100
its an infowar ;)
This China-bashing, while not entirely unwarranted, is no longer helpful. Lots of fantastic things come from China, including consumer products. They are very well made. The Lite Audio transport and DAC I currently use are a good example - but certainly not the only one.
Manufacturers will make whatever you want them to. If you want it cheap and are a greedy manufacturer, they will make it. If you want luxurious, they will make that too. Let's not forget that museums around the world are full of the most exquisite, achingly beautiful pieces of craftsmanship *ever made* from China and many of the high-end consumer goods people use (Apple, for example) are successfully made there without much fanfare.
Enough already.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
"museums around the world are full of the most exquisite, achingly beautiful pieces of craftsmanship *ever made* from China "
Everything fitting that description - even in the Shanghai Museum itself - is pre-Mao, pre-Cultural Revolution. I've been to that museum and others within China numerous times. Your description does not apply to the state of Chinese craftsmanship today.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
I'm sure Apple would disagree with you. And just look at the rubbish Line Magnetic produce. The scoundrels.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Edits: 04/30/17
TK's comments regarding China on various audio asylum threads border on racism.
The world has been subjected to American economic rationalism for the past half century which has now destroyed itself, witness GFC / Wall street collapse, Donald Trump etc !
China is simply a by-product of all of that !
Remember the US administration in the 70's that banned the import of licensed 'Fender' manufactured guitars from Japan because they were so much better in quality & pricing !
America have left the door ajar for decades regarding product quality & are now paying the price.
The introduction of 'Total Quality Management' (TQM) was a recognition by the Reagan administration to address the decline of USA military & manufacturing.
Johno
And here we go with the race card again....
Reason why I stay off twitter, Facebook and all the other social media pages....please don't turn this forum into one of those.
My old man always said you get what you pay for, accurate statement in any country including the US.
Edits: 05/01/17
In my experience, you don't always get what you pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for. :^)
I'll just mention that when PJ and I were kids "Made in Japan" was an oft used expression of great disgust for poorly made products.
There are huge differences between the absorption of that island nation's broken economy after the war and our apparent desire to raise a billion peasant farmers out of poverty. Remember what Khrushchev said? He just got the country wrong. China will bury us.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
NT
Stereomour
Nice Tuner!!!
Actually, great looking amp!
Will
Thanks. FM in the soldering room
By 'integrated' I mean built in preamp capabilities . I don't need a tape loop , phono processor or tone controls . I do need a volume control .
I don't have room on my rack for a separate preamp .
I am not capable of building my own pieces either .
I apologize if I am coming across as being negative...I don't mean to .
Having somebody build it for me would be good . TAL has a good reputation and I have heard of a guy doing the AN Kits as well . Is anyone doing the Bottlehead builds ?
Thank you to everyone .
Anyone else ?
I mean no disrespect - Min seems like a genuine, very nice person - but I don't see the quality in Tube Audio Labs builds that others rave of. They are probably okay for the price, but I'd rather spend a few $$$ more for a more robust build. Min may be able to do that, but you'd need to know what to ask for.
I'd be more inclined to contact Bottlehead - they used to have a quality builder for their stuff.
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Yes, I understand not everyone wants to build gear. I suggest you contact the folks at Bottlehead, and maybe browse their forum. It's good stuff, well worth the effort. Good luck with your search!
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Stereomour II is what you want.
The build instructions are very good if you can solder. If not, they may be able to find someone to build for you. But, an amp always sounds better if you build it yourself.
Stereomour II is a seriously great amp and a huge value. I would think you could build one yourself if not there are skilled folks that could do so. Contact Bottlehead or better yet join the forum there.
You can also have assembled for about 15% of the list price. Resale should be good too .
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
It is not exactly SET but very close. Had one and loved it and it will really let you see if this is for you. Find a used one.
Audio Note Oto SE
Will
The Audio Note Soro SE is another good choice in the AN lineup. A slightly different sonic flavor that's a bit more robust sounding than the Oto SE. A little more power at 17 wpc. for the Soro SE vs. 10 wpc. for the Oto SE. Like the Oto SE the Soro SE uses paralled power tubes, in this case 6L6/5881 and 6SL7 driver tubes. A comparison audition is always helpful to see which works best in driving your speakers and personal sonic preference.
Personally I used an Audio Note M1 pre-amp and a P2 SE amplifier for about 17 years. This is the separates combination that is the same as the Soro SE integrated. Absolutely no operational issues during my time of ownership. They worked very well with a variety of speakers including the Audio Note AN/J, Spendor S3/5 and Tonian Labs TL-D1. In a fit of madness during a time of financial need I sold them both which I regret to this day.
Mr. Brown,
Dennis Had is building single ended amps in this 'retirement' and selling them on the auction site. The Inspire PSE is a parallel single ended design about 20 watts with KT88's. Inspire is what he named the amps,
It can use 6V6's-Kt-150's depending on the rectifier.
I have different Inspire amp with a LP27a per that uses 27 tubes and love it. It's a SEP triode strapped.
The Soro PP is no slouch either at its price-point.
$750 to put together a Stereomour.
I've had mine for 14 years and I can sell it for more than I paid for it new. I've only needed to replace one preamp tube in that time.
But it's not a true SET - it is Single Ended Parallel which is as close as it gets. It takes out plenty of SET amps - I much preferred it to a Cary 300B back in the day and I actually like it more than the Meishu.
The EL84 outputs are also some of the least expensive and the longest lasting tubes available making it really cheap to operate.
Another nice thing is that no AN amp needs to be biased. Making it dead simple for tube newbies.
With regards to SET amps - I don't know the technical reason why but I always greatly prefer Parallel Single Ended tube amps. 300B or 2a3 in parallel sounds bigger and more powerful and more controlled. But more expensive.
RGA ;
I see that you are a reviewer , can you speak to the differences between a single and a parallel circuit . Basically what is gained and lost sonically ?
Thank you .
I made an error - I meant Single Ended Pentode with regards to the OTO. It basically just gives the OTO more power - as there is no comparison to a lower power version - I can't make a comparison.
With parallel (two tubes) versus (one) it is basically doubling the power. The pitfalls mentioned below I suspect depend largely on who is doing the designing and how good they are at avoiding pitfalls.
Parallel versions over more power (double?) and seem to add some more stability and control of bass drivers. For instance I am not much of a fan of the 300B as I find them quite weak willed (Hong Kong dealer calls them "lady amps") which implies they are nice for singer at a piano kind of stuff but fall apart on demanding material - the parallel 300b IME does not.
This is very true of the Empress 2A3 which actually bowled me over with its seemingly bottomless pit of power bass and drive. When I was playing Split the Atom with pelting trance bass lines - I had to shake my head that this was 7-8 watts on relatively modest sensitivity speakers.
The one tube stereo amp version (name escapes me) couldn't really do it (though it might on 100dB sensitive speakers. I didn't hear any sonic advantages with the single tube versions. Whether there is with other brands I can't say.
But I think AN probably does SET amplifiers as good as SET amplifiers can be done and because they make so many amps - you can actually audition 1 and 2 tube versions of the same amp. Single 300B, Parallel 300b, Single 2a3, parallel 2A3 and I believe also 45.
You really have to decide. I really like the AN Empress - to me it's the best value for the dollar amplifier that Audio Note makes. But I also know others who greatly prefer the 211 or 45. So it goes.
91derlust ;
You wrote..."Paralleled tubes produce greater power and simplify transformer winding somewhat. They are also harder to drive (increased Miller C), place more demands on power supply and cathode bypass design (larger C required for equivalent performance). Moreover, they introduce the variable of trying to match the two tubes as they age - no two tubes perfectly match and that situation is likely to worsen with age."
Can you explain why the paralleled tubes , aging at different rates , would affect the final output ?
Thank you .
Audio Note amplifiers all autobias. I have not heard anyone say there were any of these problems with any Audio Note amplifiers. Can't speak to lesser designs using lesser quality parts.
You may want to direct the question at 91derlust or indeed send an e-mail to Audio Note asking them about tube drift in a parallel designs to see if this is an area of weakness.
What Frihed89 said below.Paralleled tubes produce greater power and simplify transformer winding somewhat. They are also harder to drive (increased Miller C), place more demands on power supply and cathode bypass design (larger C required for equivalent performance). Moreover, they introduce the variable of trying to match the two tubes as they age - no two tubes perfectly match and that situation is likely to worsen with age.
What does this mean in a practical sense? My current thoughts are:
Traditional (old school?) amplifier designs with lots of electrolytic final PS capacitance, lots of cathode bypass capacitance, and slow-recovery power supplies would likely benefit from paralleling output tubes. The paraelling is easily implemented and additional power can mitigate some issues and the trade-offs are probably not evident. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Using these types of amplifies used with moderate efficiency speakers running mid-QTS drivers and soft dome tweeters, is a successful paradigm for off-the-shelf, (relatively) broad-appeal systems. They have that classic SET sound.
Paralleling output tubes in amplifier designs where power supply and cathode bypass capacitance is carefully calculated, higher quality capacitance is used, and power supplies have quick, well-damped recovery, is probably a different story. The cost of paralleling would be much greater (as would the space required) and it would impose power supply compromises. The additional power provides greater achievable volume, but I can see how paralleling would introduce sonic compromises in this type of design. For high(ish) efficiency speakers running low QTS bass and resolving compression/ AMT/ quality ribbon drivers, I'd prefer a well-designed single output tube SET.
I imagine that it is a case of horses for courses.
Sorry for the off-topic, but that is the way I see it at present.
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Edits: 04/28/17 04/28/17 04/28/17
that without some (all? more?) of the modifications you mentioned, dynamics in time and amplitude are impaired.
In many commercial designs, even with a single tube output, the dynamics are already impaired due to the PS design and component selection. Paralleling, even with only minor changes, would likely improve the subjective performance.
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
My two cents...paralleled output tubes just gives you more power. Many SE and SET amps parallel the output tubes to do this (2 tubes per channel). It is still single ended. Both tubes in parallel conduct identically through the full wave cycle.
I don't know how active Min at (http://www.tubeaudiolab.com/index.html) is these days, but at that price he could build you a pretty nice amp to your specs.
Thank you...
I am looking for suggestions reflecting ease of operation and reliability . Maybe a little more of a mainstream company that would reflect an easy resale also .
Since you're just toe-dipping, and your limit is $3k, at $700 it could be
a worthwhile experiment. With just 8 wpc though, there are no guarantees
it will work for you regardless of the manufacturer's stated efficiency.
If you don't become the ocean, you'll be seasick everyday ...
- Leonard Cohen
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