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In Reply to: RE: Almarro posted by mhanc on April 01, 2017 at 05:50:41
If you haven't already, check out the Line Magnetic stuff. I recently bought a 518ia and couldn't be happier.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Follow Ups:
Heard the big brother the LM219i and it was quite good...I nearly bought it but then I got a good deal on an Ayon Crossfire III.
thanks for the recommendation -- the 518a looks like a really nice amp and i have always been interested in 845 tubes.
anyway, i am just trying to find out the status of Almarro -- i see that their website server is currently unavailable. hopefully, Alamrro is still manufacturing their unique amps.
Nice looking amps, priced well too. I'm surprised Japanese quality can be purchased so inexpensively. They might have gone under; the Chinese are sinking the ship with their poor quality garbage.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Yeah, I figured you wouldn't reply, and you didn't disappoint........
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Was there something you wanted to discuss? Perhaps the poor quality of Chinese steel? Nothing from China compares to the quality of Japanese audio. For that matter, nor does much from the West nowadays.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Edits: 04/04/17
"the Chinese are sinking the ship with their poor quality garbage."
Line Magnetic excepted, of course.......
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Ozzy I have to agree with Triode-Kingdom having lived in China and now Hong Kong that much of the Chinese made stuff is really poor.Line Magnetic was the first Chinese company that changed my mind but even here I made damn sure to open the case and look inside. But you'll notice that it isn't sold at bottom basement prices either. LM is out buying the critical parts from - umm guess who - Japan and Germany.
The brothers at LM were smart and said hey we are in the business of restoring Western Electric and we can make quality transformers but pretty much everything OTHER than the transformer and the case is bought bought from Germany (caps), volume pots (Japan) etc.
But some of the other brands from China are pretty abysmal looking. I saw a Ming-Da amplifier using RudyCom caps instead of Rubycom - (I guess the guy making the fake caps is dyslexic.
Oh and when you find out eventually the company uses a bunch of fake parts - they just change their name from Ming Da to Mei-Xing.
I think it's somewhat unfair of Triode-Kingdom to condemn all China amps for being dreadful. Their main market is their home market and they have to sell to what the people can afford. They can then sell a better product to more affluent markets. And apparently the government has stepped in to ensure a better product with some sort of standard similar to the ISO 9000 thing but I forget the name of it. Manufacturers are worried because it will force them to raise prices and put some out of business.
China isn't killing Japanese products or European products because the Chinese are targeting people who generally can't afford the higher priced Japanese and European products. At the lower end many of these Japanese and Euro brands are already having their stuff (hush hush) built by the likes of Shengya, Jungson, Spark, and Line Magnetic etc.
Vincent is made by Shengya
Triode Labs Japan is made by Line Magnetic
Grant Fidelity Rita is made by Jungson.
And on and on.And hey what about the American BS companies like Theta Data - these guys buy a $299 Laserdisc player put the entire machine including the case inside their own crappy US sheet metal box and one $25 (ahem) SPDIF connector and charge 10 times the money. Talk about COPYING!
And this is just the one that got caught. How many don't get caught.
Edits: 04/07/17
"Their main market is their home market"I strongly disagree. These aren't t-shirts. Chinese companies produce tube amps for Western markets. Many Western specialty items see virtually no demand in the domestic Chinese market. Tube amps, Harleys, sports cars, etc. - these things just don't fit well into mainstream Chinese economics or culture. Chinese tube amps are intended for export to the West, and I can assure you that if they weren't, the quality would be even worse.
All that aside, what you just said about the transformers being made in China is near the top of the list as a reason not to ever own one. One of the few Line Mag products with published specs, here's what Chinese tubes and transformers get you:
Line Magnetic Audio 501IATube complement: KT120 x4, 66SN7 x2, 12AU7 x1, 12AX7 x2
Distortion: 1% (1kHz)
Bandwidth: 10Hz-15kHz (-1.5dB)
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Edits: 04/13/17
Stereophile has reviewed and was Very Very impressed with the measured results of the line magnetic they reviewed. The 518ia I believe. LM bought the western electric machines to build the transformers.
LM has been pretty solid for me. I've had some tube issues. But Peter Qvortrup had way way more problems with Elrog tubes from Germany than the Chinese tubes he has gone to.
I am not sure which Japanese companies are so great but I know and have seen a LOT of Shindo amps returned as defective. And besides at 10 times the price those should be better built. I think John Halpern would know best how many LM products have failed. If it were a lot he would probably have dumped the line by now.
No company is free of issues.
My LM 215 CD Player has had the drive fails. Just put in a whole new transport mechanism for $50 Canadian including Labour and no taxes. The drive is from a Japanese company.
And sorry but America has a huge history of making overpriced crap. All their car companies LEAP off the page. Kell is the only audio company I know of that has had a recall. They font even know how to design a fuse. And this is the king daddy of USA high end craftsmanship. Lol. Bad sounding SS audio jewelry.
Oh those great Japanese designers who brought you the Fukushima power plants. Lol. Yes and Toyota that design cars that suddenly go out of control. Junk. And Honda which made great cars through the 90s have fallen like a stone. Read the Lemon Aid guide so you know just how shoddy both brands have become.
It's actually kinda funny you would use cars as an analogy. No one in China wants a car made in their country. Only those who can't afford better will drive one.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Please list 5 great Japanese audio brands making SET amps that never fail. And which LM have you heard that both sounds like carp and falls apart.
Chinese cars suck...they like some Indian cars are sold at.prices poor people can afford. So they are not particularly good cars. It's like those WE copy 300b tubes that apparently sound as good or better than WE 300b. Reliability is an issue but they are 1/10th the price and last half as long. You still come out way ahead buying the Chinese 300b.
The LM amps sound a lot better than numerous US amps at more money and barely anyone in Korea or Hong Kong buy American made junk. Does America make anything of exceptional quality? I'd like to know which specific examples of American or Japanese amps that are built better than the 219ia for the same price. And is a similar output tube. 24ish watts 845. The AN JINRO is better but nearly 4 times more expensive.
As you've explained, the only "advantage" to these third world products is cost. There are numerous reports about Chinese tubes and tube amps that haven't worked, right out of the box. Others failed in a few hours or couldn't be repaired a year later because the company was gone or the parts changed and no longer fit, or schematics not available, or the part values weren't marked, etc., etc. Chinese vs Japanese vs US? Right, let's all waste our time confirming what's already public knowledge.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
I still don't see specific examples. Japan And later Korea was in the same boat in the 70s. Cheap junk. 20 years later they were utterly trouncing the American rubbish which comparatively is still rubbish. It's why the Americans wound up partnering with Mazda and Toyota and Volkswagen so they could learn how to design and build a car that lasted more than 1 year without becoming a paperweight.
And now some of the Kia and Hyundai models are proving to be more rugged.
Some Chinese companies suck. But it's ridiculous to suggest that there could not be a genuine wealthy Chinese audiophile who starts a company from passion and builds a great product. Contrary to popular belief this is not rocket science.
White guys are no more morally or ethically "nice" than anyone else. Take a walk through American businessmen fro Henry Ford to the slime at Theta Data to the man who is against made in China but is happy to sell ties and his daughter's clothing...all made in CHINA!
You are far better off buying Chinese audio from guys who are audiophiles and form their own company than some American sleaze who opens shop in China to save a buck and skirt pollution laws.
Of course I'm not suggesting you buy Chinese. But I know guys who have repaired a Lot of brands over the years and one noted that he had less issues with LM and Melody than he ever had with Rogue, ARC, CJ Jolida, and current McIntosh. Like Japan and Korea it takes but one company to turn the trend.
Having said all that I ultimately prefer the sound of Audio Note, because, in part, they make more parts in their equipment than ANY other hifi company by a monumental landslide. And that's why of all the gear I have purchased from them goes UP in value. I don't know of any other company that can make that claim except for collector stuff like Rogers LS3/5a and the other oddballs. But that is not sought for sound quality. There are people who simply collect the different versions and put them on a shelf as a collector display.
Lastly, with the new guy in charge, the pollution controls will now allow for certain metals to be brought back into use...not just asbestos in homes, so the Americans can now use tons of lead and possibly radioactive metals now. Woo hoo they will be able to compete again. Remember everything science says is wrong for the next 4 years.
REALLY,
I believe that you made some very solid/truthful points regarding Chinese products. There does exist a hierarchy of quality ànd it's inaccurate to lump them all the same. On the other hand it seems you are letting your personal political preference lead to hyperbole regarding the current U.S. president. Lots of leftist Pablum tossed around. Just my observation.
Charles
I am of a basic belief in a world of checks and balances. I don't want the guy selling milk to be the guy who checks to make sure the milk is safe.
I think whatever political party you or I belong to can understand the notion of greed. If a guy is selling milk and makes $50,000 a year selling milk decides he can use a wall caulking agent and make $50million and is also responsible for the testing - will suddenly always find the milk to be safe when it is not. Apply this to all industries.
It's called a conflict of interest. So any sane person or society should simply have independent checkers. You have law enforcement or whatever outfit you wish be an agency that makes sure stuff is safe or things such as slot machines in Vegas aren't crooked etc.
Now it is certainly reasonable to say - hey the checking outfit is doing a lousy job and needs to be funded better or better run or both. But you don't chuck it out and let the industry look after themselves. They only look after their bottom line.
I don't exactly get how basic freaking logic has become a political issue. Asbestos is factually toxic. Lead is an unsafe material for bullets that kill bald eagles. But once people get all conspiracy theory on stuff and doubt science and facts there is a problem.
And it applies to BOTH sides by the way. Climate Change is typically denied by every Republican but Liberals are the ones who are typically wrong on GMOs(which are safe) and vaccinations(which are safe). So both sides have their issues. Climate change is a bigger dumber issue because pretty much every solution cleans the air and the water. Those two things alone is worth doing right? Whether one believes in CC - one should still probably want to see the mountains and blue skies instead of grey skies and hacking up a lung 200 days of the year. One would probably like to drink tasty clean water from their tap. I can't believe it's only lefties who like clean air and clean water - when did that become a political thing?
Some of this doesn't really much matter - One thing I like about the US is that States still have some controls over what they do regardless of what is done federally.
Remember I do come from Canada, a country that is basically half capitalist half socialist. Okay maybe 30/70. You can still become a billionaire here so capitalism is alive and well. And I have lived in Wenzhou, China - a city that is so Capitalist that it makes the USA look like Socialist Denmark. The terms get bandied about - freedom, liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, communist etc and they usually get mixed up and blurred.
On any given topic a person could be pretty hard line conservative but then there are Republicans that are for gay marriage and pro-choice. Arlen Specter was a big example.
With the notion of Freedom - I have lived a lot of places in my life and the idea that one is more free or less free when every 4-5 years they get to vote for a two choice proposition both of whom are slaves to hidden financial masters isn't really freedom. If you have a piece of paper that dictates your rights and then the government can come along and trample those egregiously doesn't give you the ability to have the moral high ground. And other countries are watching. Guantanamo Bay is the prime example a created system to "get around" (loophole) the Geneva Convention and the constitution because those things are too inconvenient. Sure I get the need for it - I'm a realist and plenty of people don't play by the rules etc etc, but it does raise the point that all these Western Freedoms only exist until such time as those freedoms become inconvenient.
And while I think 45 is terrible the things that bother me most is hypocrisy. Have a Muslim ban - fine - I get that people are paranoid - and he ran on that and his voters think they will get blown up (even though statistically they will be more likely killed by a piano or lightning). But I get it. I disagree with the ban because I can read statistics - no ban on cars and guns that kill ridiculously more people (intentionally or accidentally). What bothers me is that 45 doesn't ban Muslims from the 5 countries he does business with and the worst terrorist offenders (Saudi Arabia and Turkey are arguably the worst) - but they're allowed in! You see THAT is what bugs me. The ban is bad but that's just a disagreement on policy - no big deal. What irks me and SHOULD irk 45's supporters is that he only does what he says up until the point it will hurt him financially. Blast all the companies that fired US workers who went to China - but then all his and his daughters clothes are made in China.
Cut meals on wheels (a financially piddly amount of money) but spend 10 times that at the golf course visits and extra security for the wife. Is it really necessary to let elderly people starve? Is that even a lefty thing? Wasn't it Reagan who supported Meals on wheels? I mean I just want the old Republicans back. If Joe the Mechanic pays 30% tax and Sally the teacher pays 30% tax then so should the CEO of GM. If the local bike shop owner has to pay 25% tax on revenue then so should Apple. Not Zero.
This isn't politics - it's just basic equality. I mean if 45 doesn't pay any income tax then why do you pay income tax? They want people bickering at each other and calling each other names - divide and concur while they make billions. Unite is right there in your country's name!
If a OPT in a tube amp can do -1.5dB at 10Hz, then, you can rest assured the HF limits well exceeds 15KHz at -1.5dB. I doubt there is either a typo or something lost in translation. It probably meant to say 150KHz.
If I have to have faith on the Chinese Electronics components, it's probably the Chinese wound transformer above all else (caps, resistors, rectifiers; etc.)
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.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.
"If a OPT in a tube amp can do -1.5dB at 10Hz, then, you can rest assured the HF limits well exceeds 15KHz at -1.5dB."
That's a nonsensical statement.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Well, I have measured 100+ transformers (OPT, IT, Input) and never came across the transformer that can do 20Hz at -1dB with 15KHz HF bandwidth at -1 or +1dB. At HF, usually transformers got more efficient and I am sure you knew that.
Anyway, a very few pairs of the Chinese PP OPT Transformers I come across used in (raysonic, grant fidelity rita) and the line output transformer used in the Twin Audio 6SN7 preamp measured quite well with -1dB from 20Hz-20KHz.
Build quality or how they run wires or the other parts are not on par with their transformers is the nonensical statement.
Contact the LM and find out why their spec at 15KHz bandwidth. I still think a typo somewhere.
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.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.
You haven't measured a transformer deficiency like that because Western companies can't/won't sell such low quality for hi-fi use.
"At HF, usually transformers got more efficient"
The high end is limited by factors that don't affect the bottom. Cheap winding techniques and high-hysteresis cores being two. Sorry, but the idea that a Chinese amplifier is high-end because all the components except the chassis and transformers have been purchased from the West (if that's even true in the land of counterfeits) is really laughable.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
May be you are delusional or some Chinese granny hit you on the head? I don't know.
I have not said that Chinese makes High End or High Quality stuff.
My message has been pretty clear to me but seems pretty muddy to you. You quoted LM501IA spec that I think is erroneous.
Who in their right mind would quote the HF at 15KHz bandwidth. They would much better says 10Hz-20KHz at -3dB than 10Hz-15KHz at -1.5dB.
This fact does not seem to bode well with Logics (especially when Chinese are trying to market their own High End line).
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.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.
Everything you've said on this topic so far is nonsensical. If you think the spec is a typo, present some evidence to that effect.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Same goes for you without saying further.
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.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.
Edits: 04/17/17
It's US companies who are to blame. Americans CHOSE to sell out Americans by firing them and going to a cost to the bottom mentality. You should be blaming western companies for selling out ti make 2 billion instead of 1.99 billion in profits than the Chinese guy trying to eat.
Stereophile covered the LM transformers in their review so if you can specifically point out how the specific transformers they designed and built suck fine. But lumping all Chinese made stuff as bad is blatant racism.
"But lumping all Chinese made stuff as bad is blatant racism. "
"Chinese" isn't a race. As for Stereophile, they haven't published an honest review in years.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
So if the Chinese guy is living in America and is American Chinese - you're okay with the product - and if it is a white American guy who opens a plant in China and makes the product in China this is okay?
So it's what plot of land that product is made that equals quality products?
And I dunno - I am sure there are American cars just as horrible as the Chinese cars - only you get to have the privilege of paying 4 times the price for the American clunker.
And gee the Geely Panda got 5 stars in safety crash tests and is said to be a pretty excellent car.
I think a lot of Americans would like to be able to own this car for the $5,600 list price and take their chances of paying $15,000 for a Ford equivalent. They've been upgrading them in recent years to meet US standards so I doubt it will be very long before Geely and companies like them make it to US shores as the Hyundai Pony and the Honda Civic before them.
"I am sure there are American cars just as horrible as the Chinese cars "
You're sure of a lot of nonsensical things.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
For fuck sake the world has been subjected to American economic rationalism for the past half century which has now destroyed itself, witness GFC / Wall street collapse.
China is simply a by-product of that !
TK remember the US administration in the 70's that blocked the import of licensed 'Fender' manufactured guitars from Japan because they were so much better in quality !
America have left the door ajar for decades regarding product quality & are now paying the price.
Finally the introduction of 'Total Quality Management' (TQM) was a recognition / response by the Reagan administration in the late 80's to address the decline of USA military & manufacturing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_quality_management
Johno
You still too chicken to name 5 Japanese/American amplifiers that are better than the LM 518IA or 219IA for the same money or close money. Where is this grouping of superior amplifiers that use better steel (transformers)?My $20,000 US car was in the shop 11 times in 18 months. I am sure there is a Chinese car that can do better and only be in the shop 10 times in 18 months.
The Ford Pinto - a prime example of American made safety. Chortle chortle.
Edits: 04/25/17 04/25/17
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