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In Reply to: RE: xaudiomanx. posted by tube wrangler on February 04, 2017 at 10:17:25
Not much to say about that. It is what it is! All I can say is good luck. I did hear two pair and I was not all that thrilled for what has to be spent to get them although in general they are good. But not at that cost. I am quite satisfied with my much less expensive but really good sounding equipment. I am in a position to buy them, thank you! But again! Why? Nothing! And I mean nothing! Is there to justify $18,500. Even if it was built by another who would get paid. I'm sorry! I am a businessman in the labor trade so I do know costs as well as anyone. Even Trump!I know American(which I prefer when I can) as compared to outside the U.S. and even all American parts and labor doesn't warrant those numbers. God bless anyone who wants to spend that and can.
I would love to see your cost sheet to build a set of them. The labor doesn't matter. Unless you are getting ripped off(which I doubt) the total cost parts only on a high end for each amp might be $1K. So two of them is double that. Labor another grand each and that's a huge amount of labor. So about $13K profit at selling them for $18,500? Not in my lifetime!
Follow Ups:
> Nothing! And I mean nothing! Is there to justify $18,500.
> I would love to see your cost sheet to build a set of them.
> The labor doesn't matter. Unless you are getting ripped off
> (which I doubt) the total cost parts only on a high end for
> each amp might be $1K. So two of them is double that. Labor
> another grand each and that's a huge amount of labor.
> So about $13K profit at selling them for $18,500? Not in my lifetime!
Boutique business have nothing to do with reasonable price/features/quality ratio. It's all about selling fetishes (usually a hackwork made by amateur tweakers) for a hefty profit.
BTW, SET amp is damn primitive technology backdated to 193x. From the point of view of electronic engineering, all that staff with silver wires is a laughingstock.
Still Mr. Guru,
That kind of profit? There are those that don't make that money in a years labor before taxes.
Why are you picking on Dennis?
Just because he charges more then you think does not make it wrong, There are lots of hidden small stuff that adds up real quick, not saying its justified but its the truth.
Dennis may have an Asian market, these guys would turn there noise up if it was 7k/pair and would not be expensive enough, this I have heard from a few other smaller manufactures... this is FACT. on top of it all the Asia is where the money is
If you guys calm down and listen to what Jeff and Dennis have been telling you..you too could build a similar design/reap the bennies.
plus its not necessarily the cost of the parts that make the cost of the piece, its Years of experimentation .....let me repeat YEARS OF EXPERIMENTATION.
With all that said I could never afford to buy but if you are a good reader/listener you can pick up VERY important information that Jeff/Dennis have been so kindly given.
Lawrence
> Why are you picking on Dennis?I'm picking on bullocks and nonsense.
> If you guys calm down and listen to what Jeff and Dennis have
> been telling you..you too could build a similar design/reap the bennies.If humanity would follow these two we would have electronics on the level of 193x.
Someone have tweaked 90 year old tech and now advertise themselves as prophets and only the source of truth in audio. Pitiful peacockery.BTW, Jeff is already banned on DIYAudio.com.
Too many people get tired of junk science.
Edits: 02/05/17
Wow.... you know what they "say"
You can't reason with STUPID so why are we even having this conversation LOL No offence, but keep it up and you will certainly not be taken serious
DENNIS IS SERIOUS
Now if you want to get ahead of the game you could ask SERIOUS questions instead of your typical JUNK science repetitive ....Let me also say there is nothing JUNK about DENNIS AMPS for the NON DIY guys his amps have a place.
you or I can build listen UP and reap the bennies ask SERIOUS questions be happy stop all the negativity.
Lawrence
I find it amusing that after drinking the Serious Stereo kool-aid, the acolytes start using upper case more frequently to show their allegiance. It's like wearing team colors. They then begin to use terms like junk science to indicate they know nothing of the realities of actual science. They then move to the "You wouldn't understand because it's new and secret" approach. Etc.
If a product is really the best of it's type by such a large margin, it will require no defense because it will be recognized as such by many and not just by a few secret society members.
> DENNIS IS SERIOUS
> Now if you want to get ahead of the game you could ask
> SERIOUS questions instead of your typical JUNK science repetitiveSerious question - no problem! Look at the one of the posts above.
$1000 powder coated top plate - is that joke or one extra "0" left after $100?
I'm ordering machinery parts regularly, including expensive with precision down to microns. Nowhere on planet Earth primitive top plate could be priced at $1000, unless made of silver, platinum or gold. CNC plasma cut is one of the cheapest way to process sheet metal, it cost close to nothing.
I have 2 powder coating facilities nearby, they'll sand blast and powder coat mid-szie parts like rim wheels for 25 - 30 Euro / pc. For 2 chassis boxes complete + 2 top plates it will be 80 - 100 Euro for custom color from Dupont.$1800 for brass nuts / bolts / washers / standoffs?
These are standard mechanical parts, sold literally by weight. $20 - $30 per amp may be.And finally, you can send a piece of wisdom (attached) to any university having courses of electronics and ask, how serious it is. You'll be surprised !
Edits: 02/05/17 02/05/17
Never implied his builds are junk so I don't know where that came from. No one ever said his stuff isn't serious. All I said was to justify the expense.
This is-- without reservation-- the STUPIDEST POST I have ever read!
"A Man Without Imagination Is A Prisoner-- Trapped In His Own Mind".
-Dennis-
I guess you don't read your own posts.On March 12, 2013 You posted
"Music applies literally thousands of signals [to the grid of a SET output tube biased at 60ma plate current] contained within the 120 ma. envelope, but [the plate current] can reach peak currents of hundreds of amperes."
Can you explain what in the world you were talking about?
There is one explanation, one real thing that you might have been thinking of, that makes you look a little less like a crazy person. (But still wrong)
I will give you a chance to tell me what it is before I tell everyone.
When I do, it will show how little you understand about audio electronics.
I forgot about this post of yours.
"The MORE microphonic a tube is, the MORE sensitive to music's changes it is."
http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=tubediy&n=153233&highlight=microphonic+tube+wrangler&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3Dmicrophonic%2B%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26topics_only%3DN%26author%3Dtube%2Bwrangler%26date1%3D%26date2%3D%26slowmessage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC%26forum%3DALL&r=
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 02/05/17
not so many times, but the few I did see where quite spectacular...:)
Recall if you will the a-a/2 or a-a/4 loading for Class A operation discussion...:)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
"the a-a/2 or a-a/4 loading for Class A operation discussion"
Yes, I remember it well.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I suppose I could top them all and tell you, 'SE makes more sense to me', or 'I am building a Dennis amp, with higher transfer efficiency'...:)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Tre'
I really didn't want this to get where it got but I guess without me thinking it did. I do appreciate you responding though. You are a wealth of knowledge that I do trust, as with others.
The only thing I didn't understand is that there aren't that many Serious Stereo products out there and how can one justify the expense he is asking for what he manufactures when I do know a bit about the cost of things. whether is be foreign or domestic. As for the real and not real of audio, that I can't answer. I am no where near the league of you guys out there. That is why I rely on yours, and others thoughts.
And! All I can say is that I did hear two pair of his 2A3 amps from different years and although they sounded good, I didn't feel they were any better than what I've owned in the past and heard. For far less $$$$$. And if you and others noticed I never said his products weren't any good. I just questioned the cost.
> All I can say is that I did hear two pair of his 2A3 amps from
> different years and although they sounded good, I didn't feel they
> were any better than what I've owned in the past and heard. For far
> less $$$$$. And if you and others noticed I never said his products
> weren't any good. I just questioned the cost.People time to time think that if they buy comparable thing for 5x price, they will get 5x value (of some kind). This is certainly true with gold and diamonds. When it comes to simple tech like audio electronics, anything above certain price point is anything but someone else PROFIT. Nothing bad, just the free market.
BTW, if you wish to acquire custom product for reasonable price, you can go to diyaudio.com, one can find there many reputable builders from USA and Canada.Since you are in a SET league, arrange a visit to someone owning 4P1L based SET amp with filament bias. Quite possible this is something that may suit your sonic preferences.
Web site for your 4P1L reference, it's owner living in Europe / UK however.
http://www.bartola.co.uk/valves/
Edits: 02/06/17
Obviously this forum is not a market for expensive products. To some, Serious Stereo amp is rip off and to some a bargain of a century . Accept it. I may have opinion that all of you guys are overpaid and do not deserve the status you have. You can't be THAT much better than a Chinese sweat shop engineer.
My big beef is with restaurants. I mean , how much I have to spend on dinner to get something better than average person would have little problem cooking with a help of youtube? $100 does not cut it.
People are multiplying, institutions are going Criminal/Gangster, (what else if you don't PRODUCE anything of consumable value)? and
a good sandwich is going synthetic, and is becoming poisonous.
Of course, the price is climbing as well-- WAIT! That's actually wrong--
the REAL price is declining, but in numbers, it is accelerating.
The money/numbers is Going South as politicians and those who vote for them are soaking the average working guy for the crumbs that are left as the system becomes Socialist and non/producing.... and attracts more and more freebies collectors of the few working men's production crumbs that are still left.
Of course, the MONEY NUMBER on everything is going up, but the actual
PRICE is going down-- way down as the money declines in value faster than the prices can be increased..
This means that producers-- of everything basic are pushing REAL quality
and costs down, but are pushing PERCEIVED quality up-- to make up sales
volume in order to have to cut quality as little as possible..
Food is going to become simple: raise your own in co-operation with
people who will help raise it, and with people who have the land to get it done.
If you're in a city, think of ways to have food growing in or ON--
your house, yard and garden (if any).
Audio? We're at the end of a Golden Age-- pick up what's THE best of this age before it's gone, and count yourself a lucky guy!
---Dennis---
Dennis,
What are the Power, Bandwidth and Distortion specifications for your current amplifiers offered for sale?
UN-screw your screwed-up Electrical Engineering mind. LOL.One can not judge an amp by LOOKING at a spec sheet, or measurements.
It is LISTENING to an amp that matters, it, and reliability, is the only thing that matters.
Get a chance to audition them, and smell de roses.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 02/27/17
It can matter if you are a 'real' manufacturer.
That is even more funny. The proof of the pudding, is in the eating, not the Measurements and Federal Documentation.
We all don't ever listen to the Documentation.
As I say, you have a big problem judging Hi Fi, and telling what is good and bad. It is a result of your training, it often leads you astray - consistently. You can't help yourself. Typical E.E.
Jeff Medwin
Let me see...spec sheet says, "single runs of wire used exclusively, none are ever paralleled"
What shall we say about how the amp sounds?
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Sorry I mentioned costs-- perhaps you haven't priced Dynamicaps. Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil, and others lately? Your $1000.00 might buy 1/4 of them--at best!
If you're using anything cheaper, then you're losing a lot of music.
Powder-coaters like money also-- that $1K will just about cover the chassis finishing-- inside and out-- with nothing left over (for a PAIR of amps). Plasma-cut, precision chassis and bottom isolation platform with PEM nuts installed?? I can get that done for about $850.00 YET.
NOT next year-- that will go up 30%.
All that necessary brass? I hope you're not using common steel nuts, bolts, washers and forgetting about Tripod transformer mounts! THAT will KILL your amp! Add another $1800.00. Shall I go on?
WHAT are you building amps out of-- BEER CANS?
Please give quality a break! I don't know about you, but I have to pay for the things I buy.
There is no free lunch. Pretending that there is one does harm to all of
us. Reality works so much better-- and has another benefit-- you are being honest-- another necessary thing to pursue in real amp-building for sure!
I wish all the best to you, and if you can really make some of those
Pipe Dreams come true, then you're in luck! Maybe you can score a brand-new Ferrari Motorcar for around $15,000.00. According to your last post, that should be a lead-pipe cinch!
-Dennis-
Dennis,
I am not going into your total cost but I will pick out one thing that is confusing. If I am not mistaken you mentioned getting a chassis powder coated almost $1K. maybe you should look elsewhere or maybe send your to the person I use here in New York. The company is called "Colorlife". You can look them up if you like. The most, and I do mean the most, I ever paid for a chassis was $75-$100 each chassis. And some of the work I had done was very fancy using non-stock colors. even then he might charge up to $50 additional. Brass screws? Even using 20 of them. What can that possibly cost? Maybe $50. Or maybe you just like bragging rights for how much you spend on something.
Really Dennis! How may amps at that cost do you sell a year? You could do a lot better if you want to.
I don't see you counted that in your calculations....lol
.
.
.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.
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