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unknown to me. I currently have a Dared VP 845 and am curious as to other quality products on the market today. This is my first tube amplifier and fyi Im pleased with it driving Verity Leonores.
However if I should decide to upgrade what are some that are under my radar that would be worth pursuing, those with no global feedback only need apply and good looking is a must, ie. piano gloss black, w/chrome etc...
This is one area I truly lack knowledge in, and am counting on you folks here , bigtime. It will be a potential longterm purchase in the near future.
Tube amplifiers like 300bs, 211s, 2as, (transformerless) like Atmospheres products ( what are these?) lots of choices not entirely sure of the class A tube categories and what it all means as well.
Jfyi I have no interest in push pull. Any input thats applicable is appreciated.
Happy new year to all and lets get this forum moving!
Suggestions please!!
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
Follow Ups:
The Atma-Sphere amplifiers are triode Output TransformerLess amplifiers (OTLs).
They use little or no feedback, don't have a separate phase splitter stage with only a single stage of gain in the circuit. So its a very simple signal path! Essentially they behave a lot like a pair of SET amps wired together differentially. They make a lot more power and less distortion than SETs as they are push-pull (although using an unusual output circuit called a Circlotron). However, an important thing they have in common with SETs is that the distortion character decreases linearly to unmeasurable as power is decreased. This is why SETs have that magical 'inner detail' you hear so much about and why you hear the same thing about Atma-Sphere amps. So they are very nimble and fast even on horn loudspeakers. I'm saying that from personal experience :)
Tim,
Seeing as you're south of the equator and well west of the pecos, and depending on the impedance characteristics of the Leonores and how loud you want and how big your room and what you listen to ...
My guess is that 2A3s or 45s might not have sufficient grunt.
300Bs can sound good and give 8-9 watts. Lots of 300B amps around; unfortunately the WE connection with the valve seems to justify every alternative valve manufacturer charging way more than they are properly worth for their take on things. The Luxman MB-300 from '84-'85 is a very nice version - at a price.
Or, as Earle Weston uses them in parallel in his Artisan 300B, about 18 wpc. (It's a beautiful amp, but not cheap and one must wait for it). At a much more modest price level, his Time Machine 300B SE is a lovely amp - 9 wpc. Again, you'd have to wait.
Somewhat cheaper again, the Wavac MD-811 uses 811A output valves for 15 wpc. They come up from time to time in Oz, and are a nice little amp, though internally nowhere near as robust or as high quality as Earle's. (He winds his own transformers, you know, and makes them very substantial, believing this the key to SET performance. I'd not have a clue, but merely listening to these things suggests that he's right. By comparison, the OPT on the MD-811 is puny.)
I can't speak for higher-powered things like 211s, 805s or other exotica.
Those speakers would justify the Artisan if you could stretch to it.
For some reason I thought you were in Oz. Guess you'll have to forget Weston Acoustics then.
I much appreciate your valuable insight and sharing of knowledge. This is exactly what im looking for, perhaps my love of Plinius gear in my hometheatre being from New Zealand swayed your thoughts in that direction.
In any case the 300b is an enchanting concept in parallel for increased output as stated by your post intrigues my interest, perhaps as its within budget.
Thanks again for your very thorough response, and enjoy your seasonable weather down under mate.
Cheers!
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
You really need to be using higher than 93 dB /1 Watt/1 meter speakers, to get the best out of SET amps.
The best sounding SET amps will be low powered.
I suggest you use 100 dB or higher speakers, and you MAY be able to go to 98 dB rated, but 100 dB and above is IDEAL for SET amps. The problem is, most "good looking " SET amps are not too high in performance. How is sounds to you, NOT how it looks, should be your guide.
After many years in this game, in 2016 I prefer to use good horn loaded speakers and LOW powered SET amps which I build myself. Nothing, to my ears, does what a horn-load does on a 15 inch woofer, on piano, lifelike dynamic shading, etc, 'least in my room and in my experience. For highs, you need a simple two way, with a good compression driver/ high frequency horn, assuming you own a good sounding amp, ...gets it done nicely.
At home, I am in the process of developing an ALTEC A7-800 system, heavily modified, and I use my own DIY Type 45 amp, which does FINE on such efficient speakers in my 12 by 18 ( small ) listening room.
I personally feel that people who use SETS with large final tubes, to power less than 98 dB / 1 Watt/ 1 meter speakers are having fun, but missing the boat. Its hard to find and beat a good 45 implementation, or a superb ( eg : Serious Stereo ) 2A3 implementation. 100 dB speaker is the START point for doing SET amps systems, "as best as it gets."
ALTEC is your high efficiency speaker starting and perhaps ending point ( GPA, etc ), and its almost impossible to beat, for the money spent.
Have fun,
Jeff Medwin
Never heard of altec unless this is the company that parted with jbl some years back. Did a search and not much, I thank you for your well written and informative explanation on the 45 and 2a tubes and associated requirements.
Speaking of horns I personally dont care for Avantguards horns, looked like big tomato plants to me being driven by Gamut front end at a Chicago Dealers soundroom years ago, didnt listen long.
lm sure theyre a fine speaker just not for me.
Anyhow Im not really in the market for speakers at the moment, but would consider inexpensive pair of quality, high sensitivity speakers for low powered class a tube amps just for curiosity.
However.....the after hours session, at the same aforementioned dealers, listenig to Duke Ellington on vinyl with Art Audio amplifier, preamp and vinyl one phono through Zingali single driver wood horn loaded? speakers much like Tannoys coencentric speakers was spooky real, en epiphany moment, never forgot that, hence my quandry.
If I ever looked for speakers that have those 100 db requirements about all I know of are Klipchhorns or big Tannoys of course horn loaded per your suggestion. Anyhow great input and Im learning.
Thanks again for taking the time...
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
A Horn system is typically 20 dB more efficient. What you hear bad from a horn is usually the amplifiers, most are totally inadequate, and horns, being sensitive, show up ALL the things wrong in the set up that is driving them. A typical high end dealer is NOT the typically good place to hear a well set up horn system.
The first speaker I bought after college was a Tannoy Monitor Gold 15 inch duplex. ALTEC was also known as ALTEC LANSING. In the 1950s, they came out with a 604 coaxial, which my Dad owned. ALTEC is now out of business, and a company in the USA called GPA ( Great Plains Audio ) is marketing modern, typically superior implementations of the Altec line.
In my experience, ALTEC is the MOST honest and MOST cost effective approach one can take to high performance home audio, of the highest calibre. BUT, set up and choice of amplification, is uber important. I run a modded A7-800 system in my apartment now, am setting it up presently.
Do more research and you will find out some things on line, about ALTEC !! Ask me privately, I can steer you.
Jeff Medwin
Heresy! Saying the modern GPA are better than the vaunted antiques? How dare you? But I agree.
Heresy! Using big A7 in that size room? What makes you think they work? Well, probably facts make you say it, because they do work, being far tighter dispersion than a mini-monitor.
I love to see posts that are dead on track, and drlowmu is right on in his observations. If more folks could hear systems like this more folks would be doing the same thing. And there would be far more music lovers loving their music. Oh, wait, I forgot, audio often has nothing to do with loving music.......
You really like the sound of horn speakers, which just happen to be quite sensitive.
It reminds me of my beagle, whom i accidentally shot while hunting rabbits in my youth. I was using a 410 shotgun with a pretty light load and I only nicked poor Gertie, thankfully. I learned my lesson. However, Gertie was afraid of rabbits for the rest of her life.
A well designed 845 based SET will have no problem driving a 93 db efficient speaker....provided the impedance curve is friendly as well. Now if you refer to 45 and 2A3 type SET's, I'm in agreement. My friend his driven 91 db efficient monitors for years with 300B SET monos. Supplemented with a pair of powered subs, but the monitors are run full range.
Find as many dealers and friends with SET amps as you can and listen to as many as you can. Let your ears tell you what they like rather than having someone else tell you what their ears favor.
Edits: 01/03/16 01/04/16
Sound advice, and one we should all heed.
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
Hi Tim,Firstly, I'd like to echo what T-K and C-B have stated below.
The Verities look like lovely speakers. They have moderate efficiency and perhaps a relatively even impedance, but I don't know if they are specifically designed for SETs. SETs (without negative feedback) have a relatively high output impedance and this ideally is designed into a speaker's bass alignment. Most speakers are designed for use with high feedback amps and often produce a soft, poorly-resolved yet slightly elevated bass when used with SETs. Still this is not always the case "in-room" and your Verities could be one of those exceptions.
The other issue is amplifier power. I roughly calculate that a max of 102dB at 1m is more than enough for me, for most music in most rooms. Others will need more and others less, depending on listening preferences and room size/ arrangement. To be comfortable, for me the amp would need to produce 8 quality SET Watts, though I suspect I could get away with half that, maybe even less, especially if the amp had decent recovery behaviour.
I don't really know what brands and models are available these days (I now build my own), but I'd be looking into SETs running 300B or the XLS variant. Maybe try Art Audio, Thomas Mayer (Vinyl Savor) or Wavelength Audio... but custom may also be an option.
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Edits: 01/03/16
91derlust, boy now thats a monicker for the ladies!
Seriously though Ive been under the impression that feedback can fog the view or create a less airy presentation in terms of soundstage depth, width, layering. My Plinius SS class a amps have no feedback and give me a great sense of space and black background, along with a clear presentaion to individual performers etc...
No bass control would not be a desireable trait but again (tubes) its new to me, my Dared vp 845 has very full and rich base as it has global feedback, perhaps nos 845s may create more 3d stage as all tubes are stock, again I just dont know. On the other hand Ive noticed quite a number of manufacturers proudly point out the : NO FEEDBACK CLICHE : I thought it ( feedback ) creates a veil in stage transparency. As to parallel tubes for more power, are you sure thats remaining in pure class A, never heard of this either.
Interesting points all around, and thanks again for the kind words about the Verities and yes they are truly beautys to behold!!
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
Your speakers aren't very efficient at 93 dB. That might rule out most lower power amplifiers, depending on musical taste and listening environment. Also, you need to be aware that damping factor can be very poor with no negative feedback. I added about 6dB of feedback to my 211 SETs for that reason. The most significant contributor to single-ended sonics are the power supply and output transformer. Quality is expensive in both these areas, and this is where the cheaper brands cut corners. The far East guys are expert at skin-deep cosmetics, but not so much where it counts. I suggest you take a look at Bottlehead, and go from there. Good luck with your search!
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Try a SET 45. No feedback and lacking power, but what it gives back is spectacular and unmatched.
Any manufacturers, names. Thanks for your time.
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
Wavelength Venus
Don Garber makes 2A3 monon and stereo amps that will play the 45 by simply changing the rectifier. I asked Don if a dedicated 45 stereo or mono amp would send a lot better. He said No, a little better.I own the mono version of the 2A3/45. I have a quite small room and 95dB sensitive 8 Ohm Tonian Acoustic speakers, Audio Note CD4.1x, deHavilland Electric Amplifier Co. UV-3 tube preamp + Crimson cables all around. My amps are 0.9, 1.5, 2.5, and 9W SETs and 12W PP triode.
Audio Note (UK) makes a 45 stereo amp, the Paladin. It's performance is improved a lot with Silver and Silver Signature models that sport double C-core OPTs.
Edits: 01/03/16
If you're happy with the VP-845, why the condition for now global feedback?
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