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In Reply to: RE: Ignore the doubters! posted by Joe Roberts on September 21, 2015 at 13:14:52
But if there were some credible science to wire direction and it's effects on low level electrical signal distribution, how about the front ends of Cell phone tower receivers and signal processing?Now don't you all agree if there was any substance to the idea of wire directionality improving performance wouldn't the cell phone industry for just one example be all over it? Just squeezing in a few more data channels would be worth millions yearly.
Don't like cell phones? How about other areas of electronics that deal with sensitive electrical signals?
P.S.
"Anyway, I think the resolution of that VTR was probably pretty low, as was the color fidelity. At the same time as that, hifi systems were already pretty high rez, no?"Even in 1959, the absolute minimum HF limit for broadcast quality was about 3.5mhz. Still a far cry for 20,000hz! So no, still no contest between audio and video bandwidth.
They didn't go to all the trouble of high speed rotating heads to get to 1500ips relative tape speed just for fun. The physics of magnetic tape recording required it - and still does!
Edits: 09/21/15 09/21/15Follow Ups:
Valid question, but musical audio listening is in the realm of aesthetics, and not evaluated by listeners in direct technical terms. The goal structures are entirely different.
Let's remember that some trick wire has been developed for commercial applications such as oxygen free copper for power distribution, litz for VLF, silver wire for high Q coils, etc. etc.
There is very little wire in a cell phone. Not a good market. Wire is becoming as obsolete as the knob and toggle switch.
I know a couple Korean PhD physicists who are extruding plates made out of monocrystal silver which they then laser cut into wire for audio.
We tried it. It was OK but not mind bending.
The grant supporting the research is a Korean govt technology incubator foundation.
In any event, I'd want to talk to guys like that to see what I can learn about materials in wire and their potential effects on signal transmission. I suspect that deep down at micro levels there is all sorts of stuff going on--boundary effects, magnetic properties, who knows what-- and some things might only appear at super macro levels like cross continental transmission.
You and I, we're just guessing. For this job, you would need materials scientists and actual physicists whio specialize in this field. Not a job for the anthropologist, this one.
As for the musical "sound" of wire, can you think of any commercial application outside of specialist audio where anybody would care let alone pay extra??
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
I'm talking about cell towers and the associated equipment shack, not your Iphone. There is plenty of wire in those. And believe me, telecommunications equipment companies can afford the cream of the crop when it comes to top materials scientists.Again where is the published research and patents?
Of course Litz wire exists as well as many other specialized wire and cables. And they are also represented by solid science as well as full technical specifications exploiting their special attributes. We have none of that with magic audio wires!
Face it, magic audio wire is pure junk science in the professional electronics industry. Unless you or someone can provide accredited documentation, that fact will remain mainstream. If your high end materials scientists and physicists have discovered proof, where are the papers for peer review?
"As for the musical "sound" of wire, can you think of any commercial application outside of specialist audio where anybody would care let alone pay extra??"
I still don't think you get it. IT'S NOT AUDIO, IT'S ELECTRICAL ENERGY. 'Audio' merely represents the bandwidth, which by the way is a the ass end of the EM spectrum. Anything that can influence audio signals will certianly have greater effects on more sensitive electrical applications.
Edits: 09/21/15 09/21/15
I doubt you ever researched this topic, Gusser. There are a million articles on obscure conductor effects.
Here's the first one off of a google scholar search
Conductors with controlled grain boundaries: An approach to the next generation, high temperature superconducting wire
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=7982179&fileId=S0884291400041790
Start there and get back to me. Hopefully the interesting articles are not in Chinese.
As I said, some people are specialist experts and you and I are not.
JR
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Or perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not saying there is no research into electrical conductor behavior on a micro level. There is a lot targeted towards specific applications where such things matter.
I am saying there is no evidence any of that has any audible effect on base band audio, that being consumer HiFi at that.
How do you know? Did you do the research. I got a couple hundred thousand hits on searching "boundary effects conductors."Can there be serious research findings that do not specifically mention soundstaging or whatnot, that seem to have a strong rational connection to audio signals?
You don't know. Learn from those who might.
Insights likely exist which are not to be found in the Belden catalog or The Audio Curmudgeon's Journal.
I am fairly convinced of the effects of wire in some cases. I even offered to lend you a piece of Audio Note silver one time to try it out for yourself, but you punked out. A real scientist does experiments, as mentioned above.
So I "know that" wire makes a difference from 30 years of experimentation. I don't "know how and why" with any authority. I'm cool with that.
You are just using your question as a weapon. Try researching it deeply to help answer it.
There might even be scholarly articles on wire in baseband audio...I don't know and neither do you. Google Scholar is a good place to start.
if you know any actual materials scientists with expertise in this area, like my partner in korea Dr. Bae, ask them.
This is not my specialty or compelling interest. I study and try to learn about people and what they do and think they know, which as this very discussion indicates is a very interesting enterprise.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Edits: 09/22/15
I work in the professional electronics industry. I am an IEEE, SMPTE, SBE member. I get the technical journals.There is absolutely no evidence any of these audiophile wire theories have any credibility. Nor is there any professional commercial application of these ideas in the audio / video industry as a whole.
We are talking about thousands of degreed electrical engineers here. Are they all wrong? Why hasn't just one of them ever published some repeatable proof of these phenomena?
You don't even work in electronics. You have extensively studied some area of human perception behavior and are using that here to cast a fog over 100 years of developed engineering knowledge and practice.
Nobody with any authority in the electronics industry is going to take you seriously in this subject.
Edits: 09/22/15
Give me the names of 5 EEs who are trained in any human research beyond the useless crap that passes as scientific audio testing.Seriously, this DBT stuff is BAD science.
Anybody can send in $75 bucks and join alphabet soup societies. I am not impressed.
This does not substitute for actual research of the wider specialist literature.
I suspect that the EE world lags behind the cutting edge materials research by at least a decade, just as it lags theory of science by 100 years, and human science by 300 years.
EEs are too busy in school learning electronics and that is OK, but there is plenty of high-level thinking going on not taught in engineering school, especially at BA/B Sc. levels. And I don't know if serious consideration of the intricacies of scientific epistemology is taught in any engineering program anywhere.
EEs are for the most part, practical fix-it guys. Not genius scholars of advanced materials research and theories of knowledge. That's fine and how it should be.
Tell us about your training. Did you study any philosophy of science or human research, or was it all DC Circuits 1 and 2?
And look at how you Professional Society dudes are...If somebody wanted to publish an article on the sound of trick wire in the official journal, they would be marched out in front of the hotel where the annual meeting takes place and shot at dawn by a bunch of ornery drunk engineers.
Anthropology and archaeology is pretty much the same way. Professional gangs of thugs, protecting and regulating their turf. Change happens but it is much slower than it should be due to vested interests and intellectual inertia.Read the old 1960s classic by Kuhn, "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" for some insight into how institutional culture functions in science. this book is part of a well-rounded liberal arts education these days, but I'd bet they don't read it in most EE classes.
Read, learn, and get some fresh perspective on the problem, or at least deeply test your assumptions because you are stuck in a mind rut that does not necessarily conform with the current state of advanced thinking on the issues.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Edits: 09/22/15
You say they are flawed and I agree even with my limited knowledge of human sciences.My point is the lack of any scientific data to support the notion of these wire follies.
P.S. SMPTE and SBE require at least some industry affiliation.
IEEE is much stricter. You can't buy your way in. Accredited credentials are reviewed prior to membership. Experience may be substituted for formal education but that still must be in the form of demonstrable accomplishments.
The more I read your posts I can see you are deeply educated in a obscure area of science. Nobody cares about this stuff day to day and I suspect you get laughed out of a room from time to time. Hence your broad dislike of professional societies made up of of peers.
An anthropologist arguing electrical engineering from a human sciences perspective?
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To be honest, I didn't suspect my topic would lead to the kind of debate, hehe
Regards,
Aleaxander.
Exactly my point about prediction in the human sciences! You can never know! ;op
Anyway, I am on your side, Aleaxander. Go have a nice glass of wine and listen to some music! ;op
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
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