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I'm curious if any generalities can be made about SET power tubes and their fit with various types of music (classical, jazz, rock, electronica, etc). Granted, every amp design is different and tubes generally have somewhat different characteristics in different applications. But does one's music preferences also lead to a preference in tubes, or is it purely the tube character that drives preference?
Follow Ups:
Good and interesting discussion here and glad I stumbled upon it. I have a pair of 300b SET monoblocks using KR300bXLS, GZ37 and 5692 for Preamp. All the usual high quality internals, ASC Audio caps, pure silver circuitry, Piltron PTX & OTX etc. and when wired to a very good pair of Altec 604-8G's in Stonehenge Cabinets it sounds dreadful, empty, no Bass, and shouty. A bit like a transistor radio sound. However using the same Audionote source and cables if I use a NAD 3020a (sorry if this is off topic) from 1980 I can hear most of what I want. The Bass is there, the mids and the highs are there too but a bit synthetic but still listenable. What I am surprised at that so many match up the 300b and the 604 and are very happy. Has anyone tried and not been happy with the sound. I can't accept that a 50 dollar SS amp is better than a 3,000 dollar SET amp. Any pointers, comments or suggestions would be greatly received.
Thanks in advance
Aubrey Martin
*some types of music sound better on different amps, but probably has as much to do with topology/circuit, speakers, etc. as the tube type. All contribute to the sound pretty equally, imho.*I agree with the above.
Bud,
If you have a well executed SET amp it will 'do' all types of music well, depending on the speakers efficiency. 300B, 2A3, 45? All are good, but I like 45's the most. I drive 98 db single drivers and am happy. It will not reproduce a symphony in a concert hall but it works for me.
Interesting comments on 300B SET amplifiers. Art Dudley visited our WAVAC room at HE2005 and described the sound as "extraordinary" (Aug Stereophile p.42) hearing the new WAVAC 300B monos play the Beatles "I'm So Tired" - not exactly new age mush but very rock 'n roll. We also played some Stevie Ray Vaughn with amazing results.The point is with the right speakers, a well designed 300B SET can rock 'n roll with the best of 'em!
------------
Jim Ricketts
tmh audio
I heard Die Another Day on this amp and my own SE 10 watter. With the right speaker(yes it does bil down to that doesn't it) you will get FAST hit you in the chest bass and visceral impact...the big name SS amps was academic and 2D sounding in comparison.On the worng speakers well this is less impressive -- so don't buy wrong speakers and you'll be fine.
What does that mean?
Clinical and not organic sounding. It seems to me that one gets a two dimensioanl presentation and high frequency grain. I want the high frequency but I want the added noise removed -- less noticeable on stuff like Madonna i grant you than say Vivaldi and Barber.One would expect more bass with SS but that's not what happened.
Academic = through the motions with the head in it but not the heart.
:)
see how those 300Bs soundor number9, number9...
guess that may scare people away from the listening room
Number three?
But it all ties together.Low power SET need high efficiency speakers and SOME high efficiency speakers don’t do all types of music well.
For example, if you choose low power SET (45/2A3) or even mid power SET (300B) you are going to have to then choose high efficiency speakers.
If you choose high efficiency, full rangers (Fostex, Goodmans, Lowther, etc.) you may not have the best system for Full Blown Classical a la Hector Berlioz.
You might have a great system for blues, jazz, female vocalist, even classical chamber music..
OTOH, with a 3-4 way high efficiency, front loaded horn system, full blown classical will work fine with 4-8 Watts.
So I guess what I am trying to say is, flea power CAN do most any type of music, with the right speakers.
JMHO, YMMV and WTFDIK.
After exhaustive research I come to the conclusion from others a SET 45 & low voltage operated SET 845 has best possibilties for most accurate music reproduction. I have only heard the RCA plus Sylvania 45 tube & it is very good. It is stated a RCA 45 monoplate is even better. I will be able to verify a pair of low voltage 845 SET monoblocks with Plitron audio xfmrs in a few weeks.My 2 cents
A pretty interesting question.I think the 45 is perhaps best for vocals. I've seen it preferred by someone who specialized in listening to vocals.
I think the 45 and the 300b play jazz well.
I feel like the 45 is a reality tube and the 300b is the mystic tube. The 45 is a little more direct and the 300b is a little more spacious. The 45 is like a Picasso painting, bright, bold and right there, and the 300b is like a Monet, a little more impressionistic.
Perhaps new age, space music, and electronic mood type of music might be more interesting with the 300b.
A little bit of arbirtrary distinctions. The sense of immediacy and clarity and forthness is right there with sets, and it makes all music more enjoyable. The sense of involvement is also there very strong with a good set, this is primarily what sets it apart from nonsets, and both my 45 and 300b amps do it even if differently. The 45 is a little more straight there and the 300b is a little more roundabout. The 300b can perhaps pull you in a little more, but the 45 is very grabbing in its own way.
A while back I played the "Supreme Al Green" cd for months and months. The I played the Jazz Messengers live at the Cafe Bohemia(?), and Donald Byrd live somewhere, I forget, for a couple of months. Now for two weeks, I'm playing two reggae cds that I picked up in Jamaica.
You just don't tire of playing the same thing over and over. Because it's compelling. It's interesting, and you hear it fresh each time. If the music is good, but then you eventually move on to something else.
The difference between 45 and 300B is to me there is a "thickness" or "bloom" in the upper bass/lower midrange with the 300B that becomes boring over time. I think if a source is somewhat bright, the 300B would be a great complement. But with refined sources, the 45 is the tube. In contrast to the 300B system I once had (with basically the same amplifier), I only power down the 45 system because it's past my bed time.
I cannot deny that I also favor the 45 tube. It seems to proportion the sound, in other words, put the proper weight to the lead instruments, as well as can be done. Probably another way to say this is that it is almost perfect in the midrange.The lead guitar, or voice, or a trumpet or sax solo sounds almost perfectly weighted among the instruments and music. Just the way you would want it to be
I have limited electricity in my house right now. I basically have been playing just one 45 amp. I fired up a 300b for the first time yesterday and I was a bit stunned at the harmonics. I was playing an Anour Brahem cd, kind of a new age/acoustic, with radian drivers, and each note seemed to linger in the air. Nuance and decay was remarkable.
A 300b doesn't quite proportion the sound the way a 45 does. But it is also quite remarkable. The proportion of sound is just more widely dispersed, less midrange focus, and it seems to offer more harmonics.
It takes the 45 for comparison maybe to be less inclined to the 300b. But it really takes a good 45. Previous to my friend building them, I had some diy's at my desktop that I couldn't keep there for over a half hour. They were off in some way, and I basically keep a 300b in this nearfield.
Plus the 45 being more of an upfront sound doesn't allow for a certain type of immersion in the sound like an aural matrix effect as the 300b. Similarly, full-range drivers also being more upfront, don't allow the listener to fall into the sound and speakers the way some 2-3 way speakers do.
Your contrast makes some sense for some 300B amps, especially if the associated preamps are a bit soft. But the better 300B amps coupled with dynamic preamps, can turn this bloom into a virtue by refining and firming it up a bit, creating a detailed and spacious image that is very pleasing and not at all artificial.I do wish Budrew were getting some better answers to his question. There is a perception out there that 300B's are for classical and acoustic only because of their reputed softness. Given the number of 300B amp owners, it would be helpful to hear from some of them how they feel about this matter...?
*But the better 300B amps coupled with dynamic preamps, can turn this bloom into a virtue by refining and firming it up a bit, creating a detailed and spacious image that is very pleasing and not at all artificial.*Many 300B amps are soft but there are few that actucally sounds more *neutral* ( oxy moron, eh? ) with a spacious and hollographic see-through midrange without losing any bass agility at all!
This is when I understood why the 300B is so popular. Hard to beat their tonal purity and what a beautiful bass delivery.
Your loudspeaker choice means much when you go SET if you like it loud and low then front horns, if cost and size are a concern and you listen to less dynamic music a fullrange with SET would be great.Many folks use SETs on the wrong type of speaker ,setting themselfs up for failure and poor sound .When you hear that SETs have no bass or can only play at low levels this is just wrong a SET is as good as the loudspeaker it runs they go hand in hand. So pick your SET amp or pick your speaker then get the rt amp or speaker for your choice.
If your xhoice of tube or amp, is dictating the type of music you listen to, then you have a problem.
Jack
I think he was driving at the opposite though, wasn't he? The type of music a person likes dictates the kind of tube they might pick. May or may not be true, but if certain topologies and circuits do certain kind of music better then you would choose that tube / circuit. And I don't generally hear too many in the SET crowd buying Judas Priest. I am sure there are some, but it seems like it is a lot of classical, jazz, and nice vocals. Might have to do with power, but from what little I have heard of SET (call it a fresh perspective) those seem to be the genres of choice.
.
I really don't see a specific tube type more-ideal for a specific music genre, save for maybe a "loud" genre like rock needing a more-powerful tube...I mean, I prefer a 45 to a 300B, and I prefer it regardless of music genre played, as long as the speaker is sensitive enough.
That's one of the reason I like mine.
They are communicative and immediate and transcend all music genre.Most of the music I listen to is heavily beat/percussive-oriented electronica which go well with generally quick footted SET amps.
Music, the love of, is why one buys/builds/listens to SET. Not a particular genre. However, I feel that the more musically communicative, the less 'studio' sound in the records grooves (simple/minimal). The greater heights one achieves in zenning out. Tone, beauty, emotion. Transport to the very place the artists once occupied, back in time.Not to say standard, major label studio fare doesn't bring it. Just that the producer's were eyeing a different sonic target.
With SET, it's all good.
How does it compare to your NAP300? I'm just curious, I've heard good things about it. And that adding a tubed pre to it would create something nice.
This amp has the similar transparency and agility similar to my Jota. It does not hit the mark dead on especially when used passive, but, I think it comes lot closer than many solid state amplifiers I've tried.The 300 is an odd bird in the Naim stable in that it came out after the 500 intro unlike other Naim amps with revision history. I've a feeling that die-hard flat earthers would have problem comprehending this amp. It is pretty *round-eathed* for Naim amplifier meaning sounding natural and even attempts at the soundstage thing. It does not have the typical fat and fuzzy 250 voicing. ( I can say this out loud here without being clubbed to death! :D ) But it sounded more lucid than the 500 where you can't help thinking the 500 is a solid state amplifier whereas the 300 has a gentler touch similar to the Jota monos albeit less bass grunt and overall authority. I think it's probably the most well-balanced out of what they offer currently and past. ( it sort of shares the similar traits as the CDS3 )
I suppose, the *delicious* midrange that many SET users crave can be had with using different preamps or at least I could come close when the amps are used with the 552 + an active xover with multiple 300s. Interesting!
I haven't tried any valve preamps with my 300, as my current preamp is sufficient enough. But I was told that in general, Naim power works ( meaning, they are less likely to blow up the amp ) better with a valve pre than a wide bandwidth solid state design.
I spent many years with Nap 250's (not fuzzy in my setup) with dual HI-Caps, an Nac 72 and 82. I also incorporated the Naim amps with a CJ top of the line tube preamp. In my opinion, the naim sound is derived from the whole. Using all Naim amps, power supplies, as well as Naca 5 and Black snaics. Trying to make my Naim amp sound hybrid by combining it with tube preamps only caused the loss of what either did well. I always considered my Naim setup as one piece. It did sound so propulsive and was lots of fun to listen to always. I have since moved on to WAvelength PF Geminis/45, Lowther DX-4/Medallion III's, ETC....... .
Good luck.Lance A.
*I spent many years with Nap 250's (not fuzzy in my setup) with dual HI-Caps, an Nac 72 and 82.*Have you tried the 300 with newer reference preamps?
They do have a different voicing and clarity and the level of the noise floor, I am afraid either 250 or 250.2 can't compete with the 300. ( but using lot more open sounding 252 or 552 as preamps )I've heard all Olive series pre including various vintages of the 52, they all sound *fuzzy* and veiled in comparison to the newer pre amps. Altho, they sure can be musical in the right system context )
I'm not gonna get into the musical preference, but even the 282/SC2/300/250.2 was superior to the 52/52PS/250/300.2 in terms of transparency and overall clarity/openness.
I am not surprised using non Naim preamps with Naim power might not be the best thing. The other way around can work wonder, however.
I can see the Lowther based speakers and SET can be a ton of fun, too.
some types of music sound better on different amps, but probably has as much to do with topology/circuit, speakers, etc. as the tube type. All contribute to the sound pretty equally, imho.
...prefence?"Neither, I'd say. I think most 1st-SET-amp purchases are made based on amp power required. But it'll be interesting to read others' opinions.
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