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In Reply to: 6SN7 is too neutral posted by paul_s on September 06, 2004 at 10:57:30:
All I hear is distortion. :)
Follow Ups:
You are taking the distortion comment too literally. 2nd harmonics is one of the really pleasing attributes of SE Triode amps. I am not refering to distortion in the sense of something that is unpleasant or really so invasive that it colors the sound noticeably. My comment was that if you are running a 45 at a primary impedance of less than 5K, you will have more distortion than what you would have at the requred 5K. You may also have more power at a lower primary impedance. With the Webster OPTs, I am not sure if they are 5K units or not and if they are less than 5K, you MAY be getting some very nice 2nd order harmonics which can be additive to the sound. I don't know enough about OPTs to speak on it for certain. 6SN7s by the way are supposed to be very linear and can be too neutral sounding. You can really tune the sound depending on what operating point you run them on.
Don't worry. I'm just chillin and enjoying a moment of the absurd.2nd order harmonics/distortion. I can see that it can be a fine edge.
But not really with this 45 which really has good gain and
a pure tone.
> > > enjoying a moment of the absurd. < < <That's pretty much *all* of your moments.
Jack
If there's a more powerful, more "extended" amp that does the above as well as a well-implemented, well-utilized 45 does within its limited range, I want to know about it! Flat puts a vocal solo IN THE FREAKIN' ROOM.When I think of 2nd order harmonics, microphonics, I think of KT88s, which many seem to enjoy just because of the "distortion". Hell, people run their hi-fis like guitar amps. But any of the older triode output tubes I know of will have over-the-top distortion as they saturate. Global feedback, anyone?
Best,
Paul S
You could be right about the lack of distortion in your amps, even though JH does not rule out the possiblity and he built the amp. The only way to know for cetain is to hook it up to a scope. Like I said, the amps sound good and I hope to get one eventually.
Coincidently, I ran into some distortion yesterday when I switched the 300b to my abbys with the new preamp. I was doing it to get more emotion out of the music than I was geting withthe 45.I'm not sure of the reason for the distortion because it doesn't distort with the omegas. Maybe I try to push the volume more with a 300b, I don't know. There could perhaps be alot of reasons for it.
But I think I found a song yesterday that can show how pure a sound you are getting out of an amp or system. I'm excited to check this idea out with other amps too. The 45 plays it best and remarkably well. That's why I said it has a pure tone.
njjohn,I have enjoyed back and forth. If you can find anywhere in my post where I said John's amps don't sound good or I "criticized" the sound let me know. Maybe I'll le you hold onto a 45 I have and you could do te same. Most people associate distortion with edge or something unpleasent. I doubt that those amps are "neutral" or "distortion free". Most amps are not purely neutral or purely distortion free.
It's not about liking or not liking the amps to me.It's all about potential. The potential of anything. I react to that. Any possible arbitrary restriction on potential.
I'm sensitive to that I guess.
Tell me where is the restriction? Particularly arbitrary.
You really don't know these transformers and how they affect the set sound. You are using an armchair philosophy.If anyone has used them, or knows them or really heard them, and don't like them, than that is a different story. Then there is a basis for discussion of finer points.
Please point out my arm chair philosophy and the conclusions that I have drawn as a result of this philosphy....I am waiting. Again, point out where I said these don't sound good or where I indicate that the OPTs are not suited for SE operation. What I mentioned was that PERHAPS what contributes to the experience is some NICE 2nd harmonics. My question about putting it under a scope is not to validate whether the amps sounds good or not, but sometimes it may give some insight as to WHY they sound good. Like I said, I liked what I heard but I sometimes like to know what is in the cool-aid before I drink it. I still may drink it without knowing, but again, what is so objectionable to wanting to be informed. Also, measurements aren't everything. If that were the case, we would all be listening to SS amps.
> > > Like I said, I liked what I heard but I sometimes like to know what is in the cool-aid before I drink it. I still may drink it without knowing, but again, what is so objectionable to wanting to be informed. < < <LOL.
That would take away the mistique, and that's half the fun if not more for him.
Jack
George, you are trying to put me to work and I'm a damm lazy person right now.Plus I'm too busy exploring the set/amp sound. I'll accept your version rather than try to find the armchair philosophy. But I guess it is hard for me to shake that opinion.
Jack, the mystique is in the amp/opt's, the sound from them, not anywhere else.
_____________________________________________________________________If I say it's raining outside, you could probably believe that.
If I say "boy, the 17th century paintings in the Met are something else", I am entering more into the subjective, but you may believe that because there is a certain historical consensus about it.
But if I say these opts are something else, it's subjective again, but without the supporting consensus.
And I realize the scope of my experience may be limited in a way that you can question what I say there.
But some things are intuitively compelling such as the latter two examples, and we humans seem to have these aesthetic abilities built inside us, without needing the "expert" to recognize things that are of a high artistic/aesthetic/transendental nature.
(It is all the same to me (all three examples).)
But a damm lot of people I know don't use these abilities, even seem to hate and rebel against them, (perhaps a fear of chaos? fear of the unknown? fear of the new?), and this forms a good foundation of the Babylon society we know.
But if someone makes a statement it could be right or wrong, or informed or not. The way to find out is to check for yourself, if it is of interest.
John,You are confusing the question of WHY they sound good with the question of "IF" they sound good. Most people have questioned the Why versus the If. IF would imply doubt. Why seems to accept the assumption that they do sound good. Now lets try to understand why? With the visual art, the evaluation of WHY it is good/bad is totally subjective. With "sonic" art, there are tangible engineering principles that CAN be pointed to which could possibly explain both the good and bad.
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