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In Reply to: Re: A comparison of two 6sn7 circuits. posted by njjohn on September 05, 2004 at 11:40:24:
Thanks. I gathered that the SRPP offers a cleaner sound. My current amps are SRPP but the one underway isn't.
Follow Ups:
I hate to use this comparison because I don't want to offend anybody.But, the srpp is like a model with a pretty face. Of course she's clean and very nice to look at and to be around.
The fi primer is like the one in bed who you can go to another world with. The sexy one you really can't resist.
I just redid the comparison on my desktop with the 26/300b and the omega super 3's. It's the same result, and what I am suggesting above.
The fi primer circuit is vastly superior sonically. It's loaded with magic. It makes music and it pulls you right into the sound like a magnet.
The srpp is a nice sounding circuit. The sound and tonal quality with my amp is excellent.
But the fi primer is incredible. It's really an incredible circuit sonically at least as matched with what I have here.
Do you think you have stumbled upon something people have not discussed for years? No such thing as one is superior to the other by definition. Properly implemented and undder the right circumstances, both are good.
"Do you think you have stumbled upon something people have not discussed for years? No such thing as one is superior to the other by definition. Properly implemented and undder the right circumstances, both are good."I don't know what information is available to people. Maybe the comparison has been done by others but as far as I know, it is not publically available.
Maybe the srpp was developed for a highly specific purpose. Maybe it is being used because of its availabilty/simplicity whatever.
It is interesting that the older circuit, I believe it is the older circuit, is much better. Maybe that is not too surprising.
I know the present moment and what matters to me in mapping out some important set sound variables. This information really helps me.
Some might prefer the sound of the srpp. I believe this to be true.
And you are right. No absolute generalization can be made.
But I sure as hell want to steer my boat in the right direction.
Most of these posts are re-hashed. Do a search on Fi Primer or SRPP and you will see they have been well researched and thoroughly discussed. I have two SRPP SETs and my next one is not a SRPP set up. And as you mentioned, knowing what you like and isolating those variables is important. Also, I can't say without certainty that the tube choice of a 6SN7 for the SRPP may not be ideal. There are lots and lots of other tubes besides a 6SN7 that may sound better under that circuit. Same could be true of the other circuit. Your reasoning may make some sense if you can isolate all sets of variables and then conclude that using a 6sn7 under the "fi" versus the "srpp", that the Fi is preferable. It would be hard to conclude that in all forms a SRPP circuit does not sound as good as your Primer circuit., given the lack of study of a wide variety of tubes along with a wide variety of choices and engineer makes while building each circuit.
"Your reasoning may make some sense if you can isolate all sets of variables and then conclude that using a 6sn7 under the "fi" versus the "srpp", that the Fi is preferable".That's what I basically did. all variables were controlled at least in this circumstance. Perhaps some change in the variables may have altered the circumstances significantly enough to draw a different conclusion, but it just doesn't seem likely. The differences between the two are flagrant.
What strikes me is that at least in this circumstance, the fi primer is so much better, it is so full of magic, that this should be something that should have been shouted about.
By the way, I think I'm using the fi primer label as a misnomer. Apparently, according to JoHn, it is the VTV circuit whcih is a variant of the fi primer.
You are using the term incorrrectly (BTW). I put this kernal of knowlege in the same bucket as the Direct Coupled versus Cap Coupled argument and the no preamp versus the active preamp versus the passive preamp argument. It all depends, though all of them can sound good in the right circumstance. As for isolating the variables, your only valid conclusion based on your findings is that when employing the 6SN7, it is better in the Fi Primer variant than in the SRPP. Also, from what I know about 6SN7s, the sound of that tube depending on make, mfg and year, who knows if the same preferential topology would endure across all the various 6SN7s. I try to avoid using them when I can.
> > > You are using the term incorrrectly (BTW). < < <
No surprise there> > > I put this kernal of knowlege in the same bucket as the Direct Coupled versus Cap Coupled argument and the no preamp versus the active preamp versus the passive preamp argument. < < <
Yea, I kind of stopped paying attention after a while.> > > As for isolating the variables, your only valid conclusion based on your findings is that when employing the 6SN7, it is better in the Fi Primer variant than in the SRPP.
True, and only better in his terms. He isn't very good at that sort of thing...> > > Also, from what I know about 6SN7s, the sound of that tube depending on make, mfg and year, who knows if the same preferential topology would endure across all the various 6SN7s. < < <
Absolutely true.I canj see some 6SN7s sounding better in one topology, but others sounding better in the other. OTOH, many tube types have this problem.
Jack
This is nothing more than the sort of generalization that winds up as advertising hyperbole. It's fed to the masses because most people want "answers", not information. How often have we been bombarded with "news" about "the latest and greatest", only to realize we've heard it all before? What goes around, comes around, again and again.What DOESN'T matter in a circuit/application?
Caveat Emptor.
Best,
Paul S
Very true. John means well but some of these things are so personal and have very little educational value and often don't make sense. I will say that I have heard some of those amps and under the circumstances they did sound good.
I'm glad I mean well. :)
Some interesting words here related to the vtv 6sn7 linestage. This is by Dick Olsher(12/00). Capital words are my emphasis, and the similarities suprise me.The Sound – Transformation
Well, that's where matters stood until I decided to experiment with tube substitutions. My primary motivation was an article published last year in Vacuum tube Valley Issue #11 ( www.vacuumtube.com) by Charlie Kittleson and Eric Barbour titled "Listening to 6SN7s." The sound of various 6SN7 types was evaluated, at least in the context of the VTV Octal Line Stage. The VTV listening panel goes on to describe the Sovtek 6SN7GT as "a bland and primitive sounding tube. Not very musically involving and nothing special. Used by tube amp OEMs due to its cheap price and ready availability." Ugh, after such an unappetizing verdict, which by the way I agree with, it was time to try something else. Out came the Sovteks and in went my vintage 60s, brown-based, Sylvania 6SN7GTs.
POWER THE UNIT AND GET READY TO ORGASM!!! I've been tube rolling for many years, but never before have I experienced a more dramatic sonic transformation than this one. All of my previous reservations were obliterated. In fact, I'm still shaking my head in disbelief over the magnitude of the change. For starters, THE SOUNDSTAGE EXPANDED TO FILL THE FRONT OF THE LISTENING ROOM with a wonderfully cogent, transparent, and romantic midrange. ALMOST AS IF WITH THE STROKE OF A MAGIC WAND, the music became infused with extraordinary verve. What an addictive experience. Album after album, the message was clear: this puppy can tango seductively with the best of them. It seemed to consistently unleash the music's dramatic underpinnings. I was surprised time and time again by its fresh rendition of music I was very familiar with. Instrumental outlines were sharply focused in space. Low-level detail floated to the surface with exceptional clarity. The decay of various reverb signatures was clearly resolved, down to the noise floor of the recording. It would, however, be a mistake to overly analyze the sound of the FOX, because its greatest strength when fortified by a quartet of good 6SN7s is an overall coherency of time and space rare in any amplifier at any price point. What that means in practical terms, IS THAT YOU CAN EASILY BE TRANSPORTED TO ANOTHER DIMENSION, which is what should happen much more often in this high-end audio business of ours. For the record, I did experiment with a couple of NOS substitutions for the Sovtek 6SL7, but without any meaningful sonic gains. My advice would be to leave the Sovtek 6SL7 alone, and focus instead on upgrading the 6SN7 tube complement. It may cost you upward to $200 to obtain a premium set of NOS tubes, but don't skimp here, since it makes all the difference in the world.
he didn't want to roll!
Best regards,
Paul S
VTV was/is notorious for publishing articles and hyping up tubes that they would then turnaround and sell at stupid prices after the tube horders bought the bait hook line and sinker. I think they chatted up some stupid raytheon 12AX7 or something like that and wanted to sell it for crazy prices. I already had some I had paid $5.00 for a few weeks earlier. Anything that comes out of there goes in one ear and out the other. The Sovtek 6SN7 is such a low hurdle to jump over that the comparison is meaningless unless you have no experience with NOS tubes. Sort of like comparing a Sovtek 300B to a WE or TJ 300B. Your comparison of Webster / hammond transformers used for a SE amp is more interesting than the tube comparison.
The websters are the true love of my audio life. I don't know if I would have been as hooked up into audio without them. Probably, but they were the fortuitious find.I've been listening to them for two years and I can't say enough about how I feel about them. I find they are extremely adaptable, extremely maleable to whatever accompanies them. And they always have the potential to sound "just right".
It is the "love affair" with these that is really my inspiration.
I've heard the best electra-prints and there are some very special qualities with them. Some beauty there but the websters go right to the heart.
Vintage sansui's are ok, that 's about it. Forget them. Smaller electr-prints sound uneven to me but that could have been the amps they were in. Current hammond: please demolish this company going from such greatness to I don't know what kind of crap I would call it by comparison.
I haven't explored any others yet. When you find the love of your life, what can you do?
Don't know much about them, Vacuum Tube Valley but in one of the searches it led to a Gizmo article praising them. Where they went from there I don't know.I wonder if in their issue number 17, if they compare their variant 6sn7 circuit to the original fi primer and what differences do they say?
In my search for ingredients that is going to make a set the most inspirational, affecting, emotionaly capable, feeling-esoteric possible, I feel like I have found another major player in the fi circuit or vtv circuit. Like assembling a basketball or baseball team, I got a major player. Here's what I have so far:
1) particular vintage transformers
2) ac on ALL filaments.
2) fi circuit or a variant. I sure like the 6sn7 as a driver in the amp.(I had actually attributed some important characteristics to the opt's when it was the fi primer.)
3) I'm not positive yet, but I believe a middle driver tube like a 26 or 27 also positively enhances the sound. I'm having a 6sn7/26/45 being built and I want to compare it to the 6sn7/27/45.
4) I'm not fully aware of the differences between the 45 and the 300b. The 45 has a remarkable sound, but the 300b seems to have a little more gut. By having the 6sn7/26/45 being built, I can check to see if the 26 is involved in this "gut".
If anyone has any other ideas around this framework, variables that can bring an amp to a higher level of cosmic transport, I 'd like to know.
I know there were some effects in Doug's amp, not really in a feeling way, but in some perceptually unique way that I'd like to find out more about to see if they can be involved.
So I'm proceeding in a deliberate observational fashion based on a foundation that really does it for me.
Of all these things the only thing that has not been really explored is the use of the Webster push pull transformers in a single ended application. Everyone that I know that builds or is really into SETS prefers AC on the filaments. The Fi circuit or various variants is all old news. Those circuits and SRPP, Cascode Mu Follwers all can be very good. I have 7062 / 45 and a ECC40 / VT52. My next unit will be a little different with a KC1 /112A/45. At some point, I hope to have John build me a unit or I'll get a pair of Webster/Hammond/Conn output transformers and give them a try. What you could possible e hearing with the Webster's is some very pleasant distortion. I don't know if, in the case of the 45, the primary impedance of 5K is available on the Websters. That would be a question for John. If it is lower than 5K, you are certainly getting more distortion. Mind you, I am not saying it does not sound good, I am sure it could be additively positive in some cases. You listen to music, not measurements :)
"What you could possible be hearing with the Webster's is some very pleasant distortion."I find the issue of it possibly being distortion, I guess boring at this point. It was an issue people raised early on. I considered it and it really doesn't interest me anymore.
You have to know that incredible emotion can be obtained from the music with your amp. You have to know this before you can go further.
Emotion, Emotion, Emotion: it's dripping from my 6sn7/26/300b amp. It's pouring out actually. What it does for jazz as an example is incredible. You really feel it.
The 45 doesn't have that emotion. It's a great amp, a sonic champ, but its not blood dripping with emotion. I don't know why.
I'll eventually solve this.
BTW, the conns aren't nearly as good.
George, this doesn't work out on paper. You have to give a listen.
John,You are taking my comments from the wrong perspective. I have heard those amps and they do sound good. I don't know why. More than likely there is some please distortion going on. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Like my speakers, should not sound good on paper but they do in reality. The point of the discussion is that there are lots of things that sound good, and no "magic bullet". 6SN7s are just one of a hundred tubes that sound good and Fi Primer versus SRPP falls in the same bucket. Now, if you want to narrow something down so that yu know what YOU like then some of these proclamations makes sense. None of them are universal. Even the argument of AC versus DC has been debated and though I like AC, I am sure people who have much more experience than I do can devise a DC heater supply that is equal to or exceeds some AC circuits.
George, I'm not intending to take you wrong.I'm not necessarily reacting to you. Maybe I'm reacting to the high end arena. I really like alot of the high-end stuff, but alot of the sound doesn't necessarily interest me anymore. In general, I appreciate some of it, but on average, I'm not interested anymore. I have an otl here that is really distortion free but it is lacking in some important way. So are many of the p-p amps that I've heard. And you know how sets vary greatly.
You know the big hoopla at first over those single driver speakers from a scandanavian country I believe it was and how people then had different feelings about them it seems. It's an audio jungle out there.
My tastes have really gone down this set/webster path.
From my perspective, this is your backyard and I don't believe you really know what is in it. We are all like that to some extent. Something has to attract us in a particular direction at the right time.
You heard what happened to be in John's house at the time of your visit. Lots of stuff comes and goes out of his house, some of it optimized better than others. He experiments alot. Some of it might have had websters, some of it not. Not easy necessarily to tell the difference right away.
We are all pretty different too, and so we have different tastes. And we all have prejudices. You could come here and certainly not like what you hear. And even after intense study and interest in something, a certain aspect can be lost to a person and the whole thing is lost.
So there is an audio jungle out there. Subjectivity of course, consensus, norms, established paths, economics, habits, politics, etc. etc.
I know what I like and I have a certain vigilance and focus about it.
I have been off the so-called "audiophile path" for about three years. One of John's amps had websters in it and if I recall correctly, I did like that one best. Don't know if it were the opts or the circuit. They were all different tube types. You could hear the differences from amp to amp. Which is the single driver scandanavia speaker? I don't remember it. You do know what YOU like and that is important to YOU and at the end that is all that really matters.
You may be one of the more fortunate souls that never jumped on the "audiophile" path. Count your blessings. Like I said, I liked what I heard out of John's amps. Could be for a variety of reasons that they sound good.
You got a map of the audio path because I sure as hell can't find it! :)
Hi George.. your points are all well taken and no doubt quite valid...
my take on the websters with the 45s is that at about 2 watts, the websters are amply able to handle the 45's.. i don't know if anybody knows what wattage the websters were designed for but one of them did accomodate four 2a3's in parallel push pull so i doubt one 45 is stressing them.. not to the point of much distortion anyway... at any rate i know what distortion sounds like and its not evident at these low power levels.. maybe the production of 2nd order harmonics is enhanced i don't know... but their sonic qualities in single ended operation are not to be denied...john
Thanks John. After hearing the amps at your place, I indeed liked what I heard :). My only point was that a 45 at a load less than 5K will generally result in more distortion (at least for a SE OPT). I tried my VT52 at 3.5K, it did sound nice, but by definition it had more distrotion. I am certain, those Websters sound fine, I don't know enough technically to understand why and it could be pleasant 2nd order harmonics. In the end, like I said it is what sounds good versus what measures well for the most part. I'll drop you a note off line. I hope that all is well and I like these give and take discussions for the fun of it... LOL
"VTV was/is notorious for publishing articles and hyping up tubes that they would then turnaround and sell at stupid prices after the tube horders bought the bait hook line and sinker."Exactly. Not since Positive Feedback has there been a publication so blatantly notorious for reviewing and praising products they have either hoarded & cornered the market on, or carry in their store - at flat out highway robbery prices. This magazine is quite simply a scam. Anything they say should be heavily disregarded.
Soundstaging is down near the bottom of my short list of priorities. The same can be said for substituting all kinds of tubes. Like I said, the sound of 6SN7s, is all over the map based on make, mfg and year. There are some great ones and there are some that are not so great ones.
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