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Hi-Can anyone, especially Jack G, give their opinion on a choice between:
1-ASL Leyla 845 amp at 20W, or
2-ASL Orchid 2A3 amp modified to take AVVT 45s at between 2 and 2.75W? (This option would cost about 30% less, but more hassle and perhaps a tad risky - who knows what sort of sound would it have...?)
My speakers are Beauhorn Virtuosos with DX4s. Listen to most music but mostly acoustic rock, indie, folk. Room is smallish (20m2) but may move to bigger place.
I'm looking for a very open, airy, clear sound. Something with great presence that is smooth rather than warm (although "warm" does not bother me too much). More like straight music rather than "great sound". I've heard Audio Note 300B monoblocks (with AG Unos) and not liked them - the sound seemed overdone, too bombastic for my ears.
I was originally considering George Wright's 45 or 2A3 amps, but import taxes are very high in France (25-30%) and it would render the trial period impractical. The Leyla is also a lot cheaper (by 1,000 euros, or $900) than importing a pair of Wright monos + preamp.
Many thanks,
Deon G
Follow Ups:
I havn't heard the Orchid, modified or otherwise.
Since I'm not Thorsten, I won't lecture you on the sound of gear I've never heard.
I will give you a few personal observations, having lived with quite a few SETs for years.
As the power goes down there seems to be an increase in *immediacy*. 10s have it more than any other tube I've heard. OTOH, this comes at a price. Lower power gives less dynamics,and less bass(sometimes leaner sound).I'm not talking volume here. Your speakers don't need alot of power,now, but if you move into a bigger room, or aquire a taste for orchestral music, things may change. I started with 300Bs, then 2A3s, then 10s, now I have 845s.Whats nice about the Leyla, is that it takes 7 6SN7s, so you can taylor it to whatever sound you prefer-lush, lean, forward, laid back etc..
Whats bad aout the Leyla, is that it takes 7 6SN7s- thats alot of NOS tubes, and they aren't cheap.
I will say, that with the exception of immediacy, the Leyla does just about everything as well or better than any SET I've heard. It might give up a pinch of warmth to 300B or 2A3 amps, but its just as smooth or smoother. Its very lush(with the right input/drivers) You don't need the power, but it isn't muscle bound either. Its rather suave sounding.
In the end, its your choice.
enjoy,
Jack
You give very good and specific advice based on personal experience (and taste) in response to Deon's question, which is why it was directed at you. However, I (and apparently Deon and Kelly) found Thorsten's comments interesting. Although you loathe discussions about circuits and their affect on sound, some of us do.I say, let all opinions be heard. I found both the recanting of your experiences, as well as Thorsten's thoughts on the subject, to be interesting, and I would enjoy threads like this even more if you and he could avoid sniping at each other. I'm asking both of you to help keep the peace.
Dave van Harn
Hi ! How are you ? I'm in Las Vegas Tuscany Hotel now. Leyla is hook up and show at Room H115 now. Leyla use only 6SN7 in signal only. the other is for power supply. It is not importance as tube for amplication.
Also a new series of Headphone products show now.escpeically a Head/Line amps
Function :
1 . 4 Input
2. 2 line output , 1 from first SRPP stage , 1 from Output transformer.
Headphone sectionSRPP direct coupling to 2A3 (2A3 work in 22ma to save life of tube due to Headphone amps no need High power).
2 Output Jack - 1 for OTL out , 1 for transformers out ! It is the big brother of MG-HeadBut it S/N Ratio is not as good as indirect head power. It have slight Buzz when play with no music but can't heard when have music.
It have all charateritic of SE direct Heat ! Is it sligh buzz is acceptable ? It is the cost of direct heat sweet sound !
I wouldn't worry too much about transparency of the integrated amps-it couldn't be much worse than signal going from a preamp, through connections, then cable, then more connections, then an amp.
enjoy,
Jack
Hi,I'm not Jack G, so you may as well disregard my comments. I am quite familar with the Beauhorns though and if your room is not huge the 45's will have enough power. I also have some views on the 845, mostly that I don't much care for their sound. I like the 45 a lot, if the power is sufficent the 45 or a 10 would still be my recommendation.
One more word on Wright Sound vs. ASL. The Driver stages in either Amp are not really anything I'd favour, but given the choice came down to only these two options I'd suggest the Wright's, as they will IMHO purely based on circuit details give better transparency. Also, if you MUST get an ASL Amp, please consider the Tulip over the Orchid, as it uses a Valve Rectifier and one less stage in the driver Circuit.
Again purely considering the design, circuit and valves used you may want to consider the Wavelength Gemini but also (given you are in France) asking JC Verdier for a 45 (or 45/2A3 convertible) Version of his "Triode Spirit" 2A3 Amp. Lastly, the Sun Audio SV-2A3 can also be quite easily converted to use 45's.
But all of these are only my personal views.
Later T
This is a repeat of what I said to Jack, but I want to be fair to both of you.I say, let all opinions be heard. I found both your thoughts on the subject of SET design and Jack's account of his tube rolling experiences in his amps to be interesting, and I would enjoy threads like this even more if you and he could avoid sniping at each other. I'm asking both of you to help keep the peace and avoid using each other's names in your posts in a manner that could be considered provocative.
Dave van Harn
My local dealer used to sell them but had too many problems and product returns. He said one of them even "burst into flames" in his living room. Who knows, they may be better now but it's not very reassuring.Deon G
Thanks for your comment on our products very much but I never hear a report of quality problem on this amplifiers from our distributors , Dealers or owners. Is anybody have problem experience in this amplifiers ? I like to know more about it ! Can you request the dealer have problem send some comment to me ? Any comment is aprriciate ! Thanks !
Hi,It's a shame to hear that. I'm aware of two Verdier 2300 Amp's in London, both have so far been working fine and sound great.
Ciao T
One thing that catches my eye, your rec of the Wavelength amp is amusing as it involves a $6000 price increase over his current ASL choice. Will a low interest loan from your office be available?
Also, correct me if I am wrong (and I am feeling very wrong today), but isn't the Orchid an integrated amp, perhaps counting for the extra stage vs the Tulip amp?
Also, as an owner of a SET with two stages in the driver circuit, I can say the it does not suffer too much transparency-wise in comparison to the Wright 3.5. Of course, the Moondog has vastly different parts as well...but still. The poor amp has always been rather maligned within the SET for its lack of direct coupling as well as the additional stage. Oh traditional me. Oh well.
Selah, as HST would say.
kh
systems online | asylum listing
Hi,> One thing that catches my eye, your rec of the Wavelength amp
> is amusing as it involves a $6000 price increase over his
> current ASL choice.Actually, given that a pair of Gemini's lists only at $ 5,000 and the ASL Amp costs $ 999, it is "only" $ 4,001 more, not $ 6,000. Also, if one is patient and scours the 2nd hand listings one may find a pair cheaper...., but point taken.
> Also, correct me if I am wrong (and I am feeling very wrong today),
> but isn't the Orchid an integrated amp, perhaps counting for the
> extra stage vs the Tulip amp?It is an "integrated", but the additional stage is just an ECC82 Cathode follower, no idea why on earth that was added in front of the ECC83 SRPP driving the Output valve instead of having the Valve rectifier.
> Also, as an owner of a SET with two stages in the driver circuit,
> I can say the it does not suffer too much transparency-wise in
> comparison to the Wright 3.5. Of course, the Moondog has vastly
> different parts as well...but still.Hmmm. I think comparing the Moondog in here is maybe a little like me throwing the Gemini in. However, I still think (from quite a bit experimentation with the various options) that going for a single stage Driver will give major improvements.
My main beef with the Wright Sound Amp is the cathode follower. While I understand the reasoning for it's use I still think doing without it would be better, but then I also think the ASL Orchid/Tulip would be better of with a 6S45 common cathode stage in the driving seat instead of the ECC83 SRPP. And all that considered, WTFDIK.
Ciao T
Have you actually *listened* to the Wright amps, or the ASL amps?
Jack
Hi,One point in favour of the ASL Amplifiers though, as both options (Tulip & Orchid) offer fixed bias they can be taken out of the box, biased for 45's and the speaker mismatched on the Output-Transformer to the next lower Tap and you are playing. Easy peasy and neat.
Any of the other Amp's (WPA 3.5, Sun Audio SV-2A3) other than the Gemini require physical mods that void warranty if applied later.
Later T
If that's so, it would make using the viac 45s really easy with the 2A3 ASL. I asked Joseph Lau the same question about using 45s on the Orchid, and he said "Should Adjust the bias and modify some resistor of bias circuit".Do you know what he means by "modify some resistor of bias circuit"? Does connecting the speaker to the lower Ohm tap do the same thing? Or perhaps this is a 45-specific improvement, not a necessity?
Thanks again,
Deon GP.S. Joseph Lau recommended the 845 amp.
Yes ! It adjust range is wide but I can not say Yes! If I can not 100% Sure !
I also consider to change all Direct Heat model to multi turns V.R to adjust bias to made it more wide range but keep it easy to adjust . Some model like Leyla , AQ1006-845.... It already upgrade 10 Multi turn V.R for Bias and Hum Adjust. I hope it can helpful in use of our products. I'm sure like to improve our products if I know it is possible. Plese send a Email or post here if any idea ! Bye ! I'm in CES2002 T.H.E Show H115 now. What live Las Vegas like to meet me to exchange experience are welcome ?
Hi,> I asked Joseph Lau the same question about using 45s on the Orchid,
> and he said "Should Adjust the bias and modify some resistor of
> bias circuit".I looked only at the Tulip and thought there was enough range in the Bias adjustment already. The 45 needs around 50 - 54V negative grid bias, compared to around 45V for the 2A3. As this is adjustable and has (IMHO) enough adjustment range - all that is needed is to set the bias so the Meter on the thing reads 360 instead of 600 (36mA instead of 60mA).
> Do you know what he means by "modify some resistor of bias
> circuit"?Yes. Contrary to my educated guess he may feel that a somewhat wider adjustment is needed, changing the resistor(s) will accomplish that. As it looks now the adjustment range for the bias is from -42V to -60V, which should suffice.
> Does connecting the speaker to the lower Ohm tap do the same thing?
No. What it does is to change the reflected load impedance in the Output Valves anode circuit. Typhically a 2A3 will like to see about 2500 Ohm Load and a 45 about 5000 Ohm load. So, if an 8 Ohm speaker on the 8 Ohm tapgives the 2A3 a load of 2500 Ohm connecting it to the 4 Ohm tap will give a 5000 Ohm Load for the Valve. If the load on the Valve is too low distortion rises strongly.
> Or perhaps this is a 45-specific improvement, not a necessity?
I'd consider the re-connection of speakers a neccesity. I have previously used an Amp that could be switched between a range of valves (300B, 50, 2A3, 45, 10/10Y) and not adjusting the ANode load did not sound as good as adjusting it correctly did. BTW, this Amp was based on JC Verdiers 2300B Design.
Lastly, I heard 300B's, 211's, 845's, 2A3's and 45's on the Beauhorns while they where around at my place. I liked 45's best with 300B second, then 845's then 211 and 2A3. But that is just my personal taste. I have not heard the ASL 845 Amp (or indeed the Orchid/Tulip - though I have heard Amplifiers using very similar circuits and Valves) and it's your money so ultimatly your call.
I would really suggest to try to get a home audition and make your own mind up.
Ciao T
look like internally, quality-wise.Also, I have favored tube rectification on every amp I have ever owned although I have not tried or heard the latest solutions via the SS rectification front. To me, tube rectification sounds eminently more relaxed and musical.
kh
systems online | asylum listing
ASL winds their own Trannys. They claim "audiophile " parts, but I haven't looked. The DT versions are upgraded(better parts/OPTs)-the leyla is DT acording to my reciept.
Jack
at least I would be in favor of Wright's output trans instead after listening to ASL's Orchid, 845 and Wright.Again, YMMV
**dubois**
Do you replace it with a Magnequest, ElectraPrint, Lundahl, etc., and see what happens to the sound?Dave van Harn
transformer rolling is basically the same as tube rolling, a few random swaps basically tells you absolutely nothing about the sound of anything... those more experienced in trannie (or tube) rolling can give you opinions, but still those opinions are generally based on a relatively small sampling of circuits.basically there is way too much going on to expect on improving a circuit by tube or trannie rolling, its basically a crapshoot.
what we do learn from these swaps are the "character" of the specific element being rolled... take 10 different 300B circuits and roll the same 300B tubes and the same outputs through them all and chances are you may start to see a pattern of the sound for maybe 7 of the 10 cases, but for the 8th and 9th case they may sound the same, and that 10th case will tell you just the opposite of what the first 7 told you.
and of course to really make this fair, for those 10 swaps, we should probably try 3 different speakers, and of course we can't ignore the room... what about music type, and recording quality???
i was at a friends house where he had a 12B4 linestage, and for kicks we were doing some choke swapping, the circuit was choke loaded and cap coupled to the output... i think i have a good idea of the flavor of each choke, and an interstage trannie could be used in place of the choke to bypass the cap... listening through some various different music and rolling the chokes, basically told me what i had already known for the flavor of each choke... then one of the guys who was there brought out a recording of him playing the violin... i already had my mind made up what i liked best based on the previous music selections, but we went through the swaps, and when we came to the choke that pretty much everybody liked the least up until now, we were all in for a rude awakening... suddenly this was by far the best sound of the day... it was real... based on everything i thought i knew, i never would have bothered, i still don't know why it sounded so good, but it sure did... and everyone agreed... moving onto other music with the same setup, and we all agreed there were better chokes on hand, but for that one case there was magic....
what it comes down to is simply there are just way to many variables at play here to simply judge a final sound by one (or a handful) random swap (s)...the one thing we have to realize is that even if we do feel we have a good grasp on the flavor of a tube, we still have no idea of how someone else is going to use it, and furthermore, an individual interpretation is merely an opinion... and preaching opinions only works if you preach to those with similar opinions... more often than not, the preaching of opinions makes it easy for others who don't feel it necessary to make up their own mind.
dave
Z
go post dave must have the same opinion.
I'm looking for a very open, airy, clear sound. Something with great presence that is smooth rather than warm (although "warm" does not bother me too much). More like straight music rather than "great sound". I've heard Audio Note 300B monoblocks (with AG Unos) and not liked them - the sound seemed overdone, too bombastic for my ears.No wonder AvantGardes allways sounds boombastics. Not amp is "guilty" for that sound.
GSI
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